3 ms·

Open source and software freedom are relevant, the FSF is not. In an era of insane surveillance, AI technology, mass corporate insanity, the FSF is still argui

Open source and software freedom are relevant, the FSF is not. In an era of insane surveillance, AI technology, mass corporate insanity, the FSF is still arguing about firmware blobs on hardware vs loaded in by the OS, or advocating for switching from .docx to .odt when the world has moved on from even having document files.

arp242 3y ago
> switching from .docx to .odt Also, isn't the whole .docx / OOXML thing just a published standard? The process may not be as "open" as one might like (i.e. not everyone can contribute) but that seems like a detail. IIRC there was a lot of FUD simply because it came from Microsoft. That said: I don't think it's entirely irrelevant; e.g. my country's parliament publishes a lot of their files in .docx. But I can read them on my Linux machine and you don't need a byte of non-free software for it, and I had a lot more trouble with the .doc files they published 20 years ago, so...
- josefx 3y ago
  > IIRC there was a lot of FUD simply because it came from Microsoft. It was annoying because we already had odt as open format and OOXML was reported to be more of a text dump of what Microsoft did in binary than a standard meant for interoperability. > But I can read them on my Linux machine and you don't need a byte of non-free software for it, and I had a lot more trouble with the .doc files they published 20 years ago, so. OpenOffice was already better at reading old doc files than Microsoft Word was well before OOXML was a thing. Meanwhile my last few attempts to deal with power point or excel sheets where still a gigantic mess of missing content.
  - arp242 3y ago
    > text dump of what Microsoft did in binary than a standard meant for interoperability. Isn't it all XML based? > OpenOffice was already better at reading old doc files than Microsoft Word was well before OOXML was a thing. It's been a long time, but that was certainly not my experience from what I recall; I had a lot of trouble with this. And writing files and then expecting Word users to be able to read them well was another source of problems. And look, maybe ODT would have been better; but that ship has sailed, and OOXML seems free for all intents and purposes, even though perhaps it's not 100% ideal. This is just not something that's all that important today.
    - ptx 3y ago
      > Isn't it all XML based? That doesn't help much when the XML format consists of elements like "footnoteLayoutLikeWW8" which "specifies that applications shall emulate the behavior of a previously existing word processing application (Microsoft Word 6.x/95/97)" [1]. I think this kind of thing is what the parent comment was referring to. [1] https://www.consortiuminfo.org/opendocument-and-ooxml/the-contradictory-nature-of-ooxml/ https://www.consortiuminfo.org/opendocument-and-ooxml/the-co...
      - arp242 3y ago
        Ah, I didn't know that! It seems like they're only there for compatibility and not in new documents(?) Either way, it seems like fighting yesterday's battle.
anthk 3y ago
Good luck stating that in any modern office. I dare you. Most gen-zers have no clue about how the real world works outside your smartphones. Hint: not as you think. At all.
- Gigachad 3y ago
  I work in a modern office in a multi national company. I haven't seen actual document files sent around for years. It's all links now which enable collaboration and always show the latest version.
  - anthk 3y ago
    Not having offline backups with discrete data it's a recipe for a future disaster.
    - cies 3y ago
      If you can do nothing without network connectivity, then it seems to be an acceptable disaster. Or do companies generally have better backup policies than Google dRive?

arp242 3y ago

> switching from .docx to .odt Also, isn't the whole .docx / OOXML thing just a published standard? The process may not be as "open" as one might like (i.e. not everyone can contribute) but that seems like a detail. IIRC there was a lot of FUD simply because it came from Microsoft. That said: I don't think it's entirely irrelevant; e.g. my country's parliament publishes a lot of their files in .docx. But I can read them on my Linux machine and you don't need a byte of non-free software for it, and I had a lot more trouble with the .doc files they published 20 years ago, so...

josefx 3y ago
> IIRC there was a lot of FUD simply because it came from Microsoft. It was annoying because we already had odt as open format and OOXML was reported to be more of a text dump of what Microsoft did in binary than a standard meant for interoperability. > But I can read them on my Linux machine and you don't need a byte of non-free software for it, and I had a lot more trouble with the .doc files they published 20 years ago, so. OpenOffice was already better at reading old doc files than Microsoft Word was well before OOXML was a thing. Meanwhile my last few attempts to deal with power point or excel sheets where still a gigantic mess of missing content.
- arp242 3y ago
  > text dump of what Microsoft did in binary than a standard meant for interoperability. Isn't it all XML based? > OpenOffice was already better at reading old doc files than Microsoft Word was well before OOXML was a thing. It's been a long time, but that was certainly not my experience from what I recall; I had a lot of trouble with this. And writing files and then expecting Word users to be able to read them well was another source of problems. And look, maybe ODT would have been better; but that ship has sailed, and OOXML seems free for all intents and purposes, even though perhaps it's not 100% ideal. This is just not something that's all that important today.
  - ptx 3y ago
    > Isn't it all XML based? That doesn't help much when the XML format consists of elements like "footnoteLayoutLikeWW8" which "specifies that applications shall emulate the behavior of a previously existing word processing application (Microsoft Word 6.x/95/97)" [1]. I think this kind of thing is what the parent comment was referring to. [1] https://www.consortiuminfo.org/opendocument-and-ooxml/the-contradictory-nature-of-ooxml/ https://www.consortiuminfo.org/opendocument-and-ooxml/the-co...
    - arp242 3y ago
      Ah, I didn't know that! It seems like they're only there for compatibility and not in new documents(?) Either way, it seems like fighting yesterday's battle.

anthk 3y ago

Good luck stating that in any modern office. I dare you. Most gen-zers have no clue about how the real world works outside your smartphones. Hint: not as you think. At all.

Gigachad 3y ago
I work in a modern office in a multi national company. I haven't seen actual document files sent around for years. It's all links now which enable collaboration and always show the latest version.
- anthk 3y ago
  Not having offline backups with discrete data it's a recipe for a future disaster.
  - cies 3y ago
    If you can do nothing without network connectivity, then it seems to be an acceptable disaster. Or do companies generally have better backup policies than Google dRive?