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It's going to take a long time before the mainstream is ready to think critically about the COVID narratives, but it's good to see first steps toward the recove

It's going to take a long time before the mainstream is ready to think critically about the COVID narratives, but it's good to see first steps toward the recovery of rationality. But there's still a lot to cover: - Lockdowns did little to prevent the spread of COVID and lead to increased deaths by other causes, egregious violation of people's fundamental rights, massively destruction of the economy, and many people's mental health. - Cloth masks were pointless security theatre - The vast majority of people except the very elderly and obese were in very little danger - The vaccines never prevented transmission - The vaccines only offered very limited protection for a brief period - The rate of side effects (including serious side effects up to and including death) is a lot higher than anyone wants to admit. - To most segments of the population, the danger of death by vaccine side effects is greater than the danger of death by COVID-19 I'm hoping in a decade or so, we'll get towards something approaching a "sorry, you were right", like we did with the Iraq war, but there's still a long way to go.

Nemrod67 3y ago
looking at the majority of comments here, I'd say it'll take more than a decade... People just seem to blank out anything really bad done by "their team" (be it either orange man bad or clinton is a traitor). I fear for the future of Human civilization
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  It might also just be because most of those claims are wrong. Unless you use 'prevent' to mean 'fully eliminate', every single one of those claims is wrong except for potentially the last one, which I am not sure of because I haven't researched.
- slikrick 3y ago
  looking at the amount of people delving into their personal fantasies and projecting on to the world is and will always be hilarious
ahartmetz 3y ago
Your positions, if these are all yours, are quite maximalist in one direction, and in some cases I have read pretty credible studies that contradict you. So, you may not get your Iraq moment.
- spookthesunset 3y ago
  > I have read pretty credible studies that contradict you. Studies cannot show if something was the right course of action. This isn't something that can be accounted for by some peer-reviewed research paper. The fact of the matter is, the response to covid was a massive disaster that did far more harm than good. And that is an absolute fact and one that will take a long time for people to swallow. It's hard to realize you literally wasted several years of your life for absolutely nothing at all.
- DocSavage 3y ago
  Agreed. His first position on lockdowns is a GBD talking point that is strongly opposed by Sweden vs Norway through mid-2021 (the end of major vaccine rollout) when they had different positions on lockdown but shared many other characteristics. Sweden had 10x more deaths during that time period, about 1200 extra deaths per million people. It also completely ignores the morbidity introduced by all the extra cases while focusing on non-COVID morbidity. That vaccines never did anything to prevent transmission is a pretty ridiculous contention for the initial wave. That vaccines posed more of a danger to most of the population compared to COVID-19 itself is also ridiculous. The US had the largest vaccination drive in its history in early 2021, peaking at 3.5 million jabs per day in April. Excess death dropped dramatically throughout the rollout and kept falling past mid-2021.
Manjuuu 3y ago
I'm hoping that in a decade or so, people will stop using "vaccines never prevented transmission" as an argument since it has been said at least a billion of times since the beginning, VACCINES PREVENTED SERIOUS ILLNESS. Same thing about the imaginary widespread side-effects or the mask being useless. Depressing. Personally I'm more worried about the people that went full retard about covid alternative views and conspiracies, I've lost a few friends to that. Sometime I wonder if you will be able to integrate into society ever again.
- brutusborn 3y ago
  It’s depressing that public institutions mishandled this so badly that a huge segment of the population has lost trust in them. I can agree that the messaging I got was that the vaccine was meant to prevent serious illness. Regardless, the absurd policies, suppression of information and discussion on vaccine side effects was unforgivable. People went full retard because the institutions meant to provide them with good information instead treated them like children and suppressed detailed debate. The only alternative was to go online and risk the lunacy that is internet research, so people did so. Now more people are anti-vaxers than ever before, and not just for mRNA vaccines but old-school shots like measles. At a minimum many institutions need change of leadership after this fiasco, and maybe complete reform of others.
  - Manjuuu 3y ago
    Yeah, the handling was not great but sadly I'm not really sure if the population was ready for detailed debate, considering that a good chunk of it ended up misunderstanding most of the official notices and falling for the most stupid conspiracy theories. We need to improve education, by A LOT. And it's everyone responsibility.
    - brutusborn 3y ago
      That attitude is what got us into this low-trust mess. It should not be up to the government to determine what debate the public is ready for. The debate will occur anyway, so if you try to suppress it, you just push it into the depths of the internet with all the associated downside.
Xerox9213 3y ago
[dead]
mft_ 3y ago
Wow, there're a lot to parse here, and it looks like you're coming at this from an "I've already decided" and "axe to grind" angle. > - Lockdowns did little to prevent the spread of COVID... <citation needed> > - Cloth masks were pointless security theatre <citation needed> - and most rational people (and countries) immediately switched to N95 masks as soon as supply chains could support the demand. That said, I'd bet that even less-proven masks would have some lesser but still positive impact. > - The vast majority of people except the very elderly and obese were in very little danger ...except there are plenty of examples of fit, young people having life-altering acute and/or longer-term symptoms. On a population-level, you're right that the numbers are small(er), but I'd argue that each individual case to the contrary is a disaster for the indiviudal involved. As Stalin said: “The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of a million is a statistic.” You appear to be looking at the statistics; I was happy to accept changes to my lifestyle to diminish risk of harm to individuals. > - The vaccines never prevented transmission That's a straw-man argument - that's not the primary purpose of a vaccine. > - The vaccines only offered very limited protection for a brief period Nah. Vaccines offered significant protection against severe disease for a period of months (which itself is a factor of how the human body function). With widespread vaccination, the world was able to 'get on top of' the pandemic, and its effects of healthcare over-utilisation. > - The rate of side effects (including serious side effects up to and including death) is a lot higher than anyone wants to admit. <citation needed> > - To most segments of the population, the danger of death by vaccine side effects is greater than the danger of death by COVID-19 <citation needed>
- realjhol 3y ago
  >> - Lockdowns did little to prevent the spread of COVID... > <citation needed> https://iea.org.uk/publications/did-lockdowns-work-the-verdict-on-covid-restrictions/# https://iea.org.uk/publications/did-lockdowns-work-the-verdi... >> - Cloth masks were pointless security theatre > <citation needed> https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub6/full https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD... > I was happy to accept changes to my lifestyle to diminish risk of harm to individuals. We now have a massive unexplained excess deaths crisis, but suddenly it's "see no evil, hear no evil". >> - The vaccines never prevented transmission > That's a straw-man argument - that's not the primary purpose of a vaccine. That is not public officials and talking heads were saying at the start. See this montage: https://twitter.com/XvirtueSignaler/status/1665770269418614784 https://twitter.com/XvirtueSignaler/status/16657702694186147... > With widespread vaccination, the world was able to 'get on top of' the pandemic The world never "got on top of" COVID. It never had any significant control over it. Omicron came along, and spread through the population with mild symptoms, leading to widespread natural immunity. > its effects of healthcare over-utilisation. That never happened anywhere in the world. >> - The rate of side effects (including serious side effects up to and including death) is a lot higher than anyone wants to admit. > <citation needed> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36055877/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36055877/ In randomized control trials of the mRNA COVID-19 vaccines here in the UK, we now know that the risk of serious adverse effects from the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines was 12.5 per 10,000 vaccinated i.e. a ~1 in 800 chance of serious adverse effects. >> - To most segments of the population, the danger of death by vaccine side effects is greater than the danger of death by COVID-19 > <citation needed> The UK government has now published its estimate of the number of people needed to vaccinate to prevent a COVID-19 hospitalisation: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1131409/appendix-1-of-jcvi-statement-on-2023-covid-19-vaccination-programme-8-november-2022.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... In Table 3, notice how in every age group except 70+, the number-needed-to-vaccinate to prevent a hospital visit figure is higher than 1 in 800. And in Table 4 notice not even 70+ are more in danger of severe hospitalisation than 1 in 800.
P_I_Staker 3y ago
I don't agree with you

Nemrod67 3y ago

looking at the majority of comments here, I'd say it'll take more than a decade... People just seem to blank out anything really bad done by "their team" (be it either orange man bad or clinton is a traitor). I fear for the future of Human civilization

whimsicalism 3y ago
It might also just be because most of those claims are wrong. Unless you use 'prevent' to mean 'fully eliminate', every single one of those claims is wrong except for potentially the last one, which I am not sure of because I haven't researched.
slikrick 3y ago
looking at the amount of people delving into their personal fantasies and projecting on to the world is and will always be hilarious

ahartmetz 3y ago

Your positions, if these are all yours, are quite maximalist in one direction, and in some cases I have read pretty credible studies that contradict you. So, you may not get your Iraq moment.

spookthesunset 3y ago
> I have read pretty credible studies that contradict you. Studies cannot show if something was the right course of action. This isn't something that can be accounted for by some peer-reviewed research paper. The fact of the matter is, the response to covid was a massive disaster that did far more harm than good. And that is an absolute fact and one that will take a long time for people to swallow. It's hard to realize you literally wasted several years of your life for absolutely nothing at all.
DocSavage 3y ago
Agreed. His first position on lockdowns is a GBD talking point that is strongly opposed by Sweden vs Norway through mid-2021 (the end of major vaccine rollout) when they had different positions on lockdown but shared many other characteristics. Sweden had 10x more deaths during that time period, about 1200 extra deaths per million people. It also completely ignores the morbidity introduced by all the extra cases while focusing on non-COVID morbidity. That vaccines never did anything to prevent transmission is a pretty ridiculous contention for the initial wave. That vaccines posed more of a danger to most of the population compared to COVID-19 itself is also ridiculous. The US had the largest vaccination drive in its history in early 2021, peaking at 3.5 million jabs per day in April. Excess death dropped dramatically throughout the rollout and kept falling past mid-2021.

Manjuuu 3y ago

I'm hoping that in a decade or so, people will stop using "vaccines never prevented transmission" as an argument since it has been said at least a billion of times since the beginning, VACCINES PREVENTED SERIOUS ILLNESS. Same thing about the imaginary widespread side-effects or the mask being useless. Depressing. Personally I'm more worried about the people that went full retard about covid alternative views and conspiracies, I've lost a few friends to that. Sometime I wonder if you will be able to integrate into society ever again.

brutusborn 3y ago
It’s depressing that public institutions mishandled this so badly that a huge segment of the population has lost trust in them. I can agree that the messaging I got was that the vaccine was meant to prevent serious illness. Regardless, the absurd policies, suppression of information and discussion on vaccine side effects was unforgivable. People went full retard because the institutions meant to provide them with good information instead treated them like children and suppressed detailed debate. The only alternative was to go online and risk the lunacy that is internet research, so people did so. Now more people are anti-vaxers than ever before, and not just for mRNA vaccines but old-school shots like measles. At a minimum many institutions need change of leadership after this fiasco, and maybe complete reform of others.
- Manjuuu 3y ago
  Yeah, the handling was not great but sadly I'm not really sure if the population was ready for detailed debate, considering that a good chunk of it ended up misunderstanding most of the official notices and falling for the most stupid conspiracy theories. We need to improve education, by A LOT. And it's everyone responsibility.
  - brutusborn 3y ago
    That attitude is what got us into this low-trust mess. It should not be up to the government to determine what debate the public is ready for. The debate will occur anyway, so if you try to suppress it, you just push it into the depths of the internet with all the associated downside.

Xerox9213 3y ago

[dead]

mft_ 3y ago

Wow, there're a lot to parse here, and it looks like you're coming at this from an "I've already decided" and "axe to grind" angle. > - Lockdowns did little to prevent the spread of COVID... <citation needed> > - Cloth masks were pointless security theatre <citation needed> - and most rational people (and countries) immediately switched to N95 masks as soon as supply chains could support the demand. That said, I'd bet that even less-proven masks would have some lesser but still positive impact. > - The vast majority of people except the very elderly and obese were in very little danger ...except there are plenty of examples of fit, young people having life-altering acute and/or longer-term symptoms. On a population-level, you're right that the numbers are small(er), but I'd argue that each individual case to the contrary is a disaster for the indiviudal involved. As Stalin said: “The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of a million is a statistic.” You appear to be looking at the statistics; I was happy to accept changes to my lifestyle to diminish risk of harm to individuals. > - The vaccines never prevented transmission That's a straw-man argument - that's not the primary purpose of a vaccine. > - The vaccines only offered very limited protection for a brief period Nah. Vaccines offered significant protection against severe disease for a period of months (which itself is a factor of how the human body function). With widespread vaccination, the world was able to 'get on top of' the pandemic, and its effects of healthcare over-utilisation. > - The rate of side effects (including serious side effects up to and including death) is a lot higher than anyone wants to admit. <citation needed> > - To most segments of the population, the danger of death by vaccine side effects is greater than the danger of death by COVID-19 <citation needed>

realjhol 3y ago
>> - Lockdowns did little to prevent the spread of COVID... > <citation needed> https://iea.org.uk/publications/did-lockdowns-work-the-verdict-on-covid-restrictions/# https://iea.org.uk/publications/did-lockdowns-work-the-verdi... >> - Cloth masks were pointless security theatre > <citation needed> https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub6/full https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD... > I was happy to accept changes to my lifestyle to diminish risk of harm to individuals. We now have a massive unexplained excess deaths crisis, but suddenly it's "see no evil, hear no evil". >> - The vaccines never prevented transmission > That's a straw-man argument - that's not the primary purpose of a vaccine. That is not public officials and talking heads were saying at the start. See this montage: https://twitter.com/XvirtueSignaler/status/1665770269418614784 https://twitter.com/XvirtueSignaler/status/16657702694186147... > With widespread vaccination, the world was able to 'get on top of' the pandemic The world never "got on top of" COVID. It never had any significant control over it. Omicron came along, and spread through the population with mild symptoms, leading to widespread natural immunity. > its effects of healthcare over-utilisation. That never happened anywhere in the world. >> - The rate of side effects (including serious side effects up to and including death) is a lot higher than anyone wants to admit. > <citation needed> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36055877/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36055877/ In randomized control trials of the mRNA COVID-19 vaccines here in the UK, we now know that the risk of serious adverse effects from the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines was 12.5 per 10,000 vaccinated i.e. a ~1 in 800 chance of serious adverse effects. >> - To most segments of the population, the danger of death by vaccine side effects is greater than the danger of death by COVID-19 > <citation needed> The UK government has now published its estimate of the number of people needed to vaccinate to prevent a COVID-19 hospitalisation: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1131409/appendix-1-of-jcvi-statement-on-2023-covid-19-vaccination-programme-8-november-2022.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... In Table 3, notice how in every age group except 70+, the number-needed-to-vaccinate to prevent a hospital visit figure is higher than 1 in 800. And in Table 4 notice not even 70+ are more in danger of severe hospitalisation than 1 in 800.

P_I_Staker 3y ago

I don't agree with you