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I have been in this A/B test group and I have been in the A/B test group that tries to show a TikTok style feed (one that gets new content based on the content

I have been in this A/B test group and I have been in the A/B test group that tries to show a TikTok style feed (one that gets new content based on the content you spent time observing) rather than a normalized upvote based one. Without old.reddit.com, I would have not used reddit. I think it is important to never comply with these forced changes. I think there is a larger discussion on professional ethics to be had. Is it ethical to implement dark patterns and "force" users into behavior or to degrade experience, not as a cost saving measure, but as an effort to force compliance? We implement these things we would probably not tolerate ourselves. We implement ads but use ad blockers. We try to force app usage but allow old.reddit.com for ourselves. How is that ethical?

EMIRELADERO 3y ago
While I do not agree with the trend, especially how it's currently going, I think this is how Reddit leadership (and many other C-level/PM people of other brands like YouTube) view it: the site isn't a place to choose what to see, it's a consume consume consume kind of thing. Similar to YouTube removing granularity levels for filtering videos on channels, it's not a content library. It's not even a video rental store. It's a movie theater. Sit down, watch what's on today, move on.
- bastawhiz 3y ago
  That's not the attractive part of TikTok-style feeds for business leadership: it requires you to engage with exactly one thing at a time. And you don't decide what that one thing is, and they can make it an ad. It's not a movie theater, it's a TV station. As long as the thing you're looking at is compelling enough to stay after they slap you in the face with an advertisement every few seconds (every 8-30 seconds, on my Instagram reels feed right now), you'll just keep doing it. As long as the commercials aren't too long or obnoxious, you won't change the station.
  - bollos 3y ago
    I'm always surprised by the sheer amount of ads on Instagram. TikTok barely shows me any ads, even through prolonged periods of me using the app. Using Instagram is pain with the constant amount of identical ads being shoved down the pipeline.
    - nosianu 3y ago
      This would make me suspicious, and my first assumption would be that the ads are hidden as fake content. On reddit it's quite obvious, when there's yet another /r/funny post about some (for example) "funny" Coke bottle thing or some other brand. Lots of those kinds of posts, actually. Also a lot of quite obvious fake engagement-encouraging posts, such as the many question reddits with thread-creating questions (/r/AskReddit comes to mind, a large subreddit also shown on the frontpage when I'm not logged in) that even look and sound like they were planned and designed (and they all have a similar vibe, as if coming from the same source). Modern ads are not the obvious type that are marked as such. It's more like product placement and a bunch of other less obvious methods.
      - willis936 3y ago
        Lawsuits are not as scary as they should be.
      - mynameisvlad 3y ago
        Those are two wildly different things. I’m almost positive that Instagram also has those sort of embedded promotions/ads, which are generally done outside of the official platform. But they also have a metric shitton of actual ads, within their own platform, that they queued up.
      - bollos 3y ago
        They're either hidden extremely well, I'm oblivious to them or they're not there as much I'd say. Most of the things I get on TikTok are, I would argue, genuine content that someone made because they wanted to or is following along a trend that is ongoing. I don't get a lot of people showing off a product, and often when they do it's for stuff I'm interested in and I'm already following them for. Perhaps its a matter of diversity. Instagram feels very monotone in its ads: bottom barrel mobile games or brands trying to sell me their garbage I don't need nor would be interested in. TikTok on the other hand feels less monotonous in what I get shown.
nextlevelwizard 3y ago
I want both. I want the old.reddit.com UI, but I would like to have algorithm curated feed. I am sick and tired of all the USA politics on there. I've added a lot of the political subreddits to my filters, but that just means sometimes when I browse r/all I just get a blank page since every single post on that page was from political subreddit.
matsemann 3y ago
I've been wondering if I'm in some experiment sometime as well. Sometimes my r/popular will be filled with content from niche subreddits I don't follow with barely any upvotes. The content is generally bad. Seems like a failed attempt at a "for you" page (and then I would just have browsed my own frontpage with subs I follow..) But if I refresh, it's back to "expected" content. So weird.
crabmusket 3y ago
I mean... It's not ethical. What discussion needs to be had? If "we" don't like doing those things, why don't "we" find a job doing something we believe in? Sorry to sound hostile- I think your implicit inclusion of me in your "we" got my back up. Do you personally work on building ad tech or implementing dark patterns? Do you feel you have no alternatives that are accessible to you?
- hayst4ck 3y ago
  Of course I mean you. I mean all programmers. "When political leaders set a negative example, professional commitments to just practice become more important. It is hard to subvert a rule-of-law state without lawyers, or to hold show trials without judges. Authoritarians need obedient civil servants, and concentration camp directors seek businessmen interested in cheap labor." -- Timothy Snyder (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F75dhfkXjw8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F75dhfkXjw8) As engineers we are building these systems, such as ad tech and personal data markets, that we do not wish to participate in. We (and if you're back is up, then in all likelihood you) are responsible for the world we are creating. As engineers we have an ethical responsibility to build a world we wish to live in. As a class of people exercising power together, we can use that power to make a world we want to live in. When we implement systems that sell personal data we disempower ourselves and empower those who benefit from making the world a worse place.
  - crabmusket 3y ago
    Right, but actually I chose the job I'm doing now because I believe it's good for the world. I've put a lot of hard work into bootstrapping a renewable tech company, and made sacrifices to do so. That's why I felt annoyed at the implication. "Vote with your feet" is probably a more realistic strategy for enacting this kind of change, so to deny that there are software jobs that are not part of the problem is a bit defeatist. I'd be all in favour of a general strike on building adtech, though I personally couldn't participate.

EMIRELADERO 3y ago

While I do not agree with the trend, especially how it's currently going, I think this is how Reddit leadership (and many other C-level/PM people of other brands like YouTube) view it: the site isn't a place to choose what to see, it's a consume consume consume kind of thing. Similar to YouTube removing granularity levels for filtering videos on channels, it's not a content library. It's not even a video rental store. It's a movie theater. Sit down, watch what's on today, move on.

bastawhiz 3y ago
That's not the attractive part of TikTok-style feeds for business leadership: it requires you to engage with exactly one thing at a time. And you don't decide what that one thing is, and they can make it an ad. It's not a movie theater, it's a TV station. As long as the thing you're looking at is compelling enough to stay after they slap you in the face with an advertisement every few seconds (every 8-30 seconds, on my Instagram reels feed right now), you'll just keep doing it. As long as the commercials aren't too long or obnoxious, you won't change the station.
- bollos 3y ago
  I'm always surprised by the sheer amount of ads on Instagram. TikTok barely shows me any ads, even through prolonged periods of me using the app. Using Instagram is pain with the constant amount of identical ads being shoved down the pipeline.
  - nosianu 3y ago
    This would make me suspicious, and my first assumption would be that the ads are hidden as fake content. On reddit it's quite obvious, when there's yet another /r/funny post about some (for example) "funny" Coke bottle thing or some other brand. Lots of those kinds of posts, actually. Also a lot of quite obvious fake engagement-encouraging posts, such as the many question reddits with thread-creating questions (/r/AskReddit comes to mind, a large subreddit also shown on the frontpage when I'm not logged in) that even look and sound like they were planned and designed (and they all have a similar vibe, as if coming from the same source). Modern ads are not the obvious type that are marked as such. It's more like product placement and a bunch of other less obvious methods.
    - willis936 3y ago
      Lawsuits are not as scary as they should be.
    - mynameisvlad 3y ago
      Those are two wildly different things. I’m almost positive that Instagram also has those sort of embedded promotions/ads, which are generally done outside of the official platform. But they also have a metric shitton of actual ads, within their own platform, that they queued up.
    - bollos 3y ago
      They're either hidden extremely well, I'm oblivious to them or they're not there as much I'd say. Most of the things I get on TikTok are, I would argue, genuine content that someone made because they wanted to or is following along a trend that is ongoing. I don't get a lot of people showing off a product, and often when they do it's for stuff I'm interested in and I'm already following them for. Perhaps its a matter of diversity. Instagram feels very monotone in its ads: bottom barrel mobile games or brands trying to sell me their garbage I don't need nor would be interested in. TikTok on the other hand feels less monotonous in what I get shown.

nextlevelwizard 3y ago

I want both. I want the old.reddit.com UI, but I would like to have algorithm curated feed. I am sick and tired of all the USA politics on there. I've added a lot of the political subreddits to my filters, but that just means sometimes when I browse r/all I just get a blank page since every single post on that page was from political subreddit.

matsemann 3y ago

I've been wondering if I'm in some experiment sometime as well. Sometimes my r/popular will be filled with content from niche subreddits I don't follow with barely any upvotes. The content is generally bad. Seems like a failed attempt at a "for you" page (and then I would just have browsed my own frontpage with subs I follow..) But if I refresh, it's back to "expected" content. So weird.

crabmusket 3y ago

I mean... It's not ethical. What discussion needs to be had? If "we" don't like doing those things, why don't "we" find a job doing something we believe in? Sorry to sound hostile- I think your implicit inclusion of me in your "we" got my back up. Do you personally work on building ad tech or implementing dark patterns? Do you feel you have no alternatives that are accessible to you?

hayst4ck 3y ago
Of course I mean you. I mean all programmers. "When political leaders set a negative example, professional commitments to just practice become more important. It is hard to subvert a rule-of-law state without lawyers, or to hold show trials without judges. Authoritarians need obedient civil servants, and concentration camp directors seek businessmen interested in cheap labor." -- Timothy Snyder (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F75dhfkXjw8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F75dhfkXjw8) As engineers we are building these systems, such as ad tech and personal data markets, that we do not wish to participate in. We (and if you're back is up, then in all likelihood you) are responsible for the world we are creating. As engineers we have an ethical responsibility to build a world we wish to live in. As a class of people exercising power together, we can use that power to make a world we want to live in. When we implement systems that sell personal data we disempower ourselves and empower those who benefit from making the world a worse place.
- crabmusket 3y ago
  Right, but actually I chose the job I'm doing now because I believe it's good for the world. I've put a lot of hard work into bootstrapping a renewable tech company, and made sacrifices to do so. That's why I felt annoyed at the implication. "Vote with your feet" is probably a more realistic strategy for enacting this kind of change, so to deny that there are software jobs that are not part of the problem is a bit defeatist. I'd be all in favour of a general strike on building adtech, though I personally couldn't participate.