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The amateur aviation community really likes to make a huge deal out of these diversions. Forums were full of speculation about the crew or passengers being take

by jhugo 3y ago

The amateur aviation community really likes to make a huge deal out of these diversions. Forums were full of speculation about the crew or passengers being taken hostage (!), Russia impounding/stealing the aircraft, it being stuck there for months due to sanctions preventing the import of parts, etc. The reality is quite boring. It should come as no surprise that Air India was not flying over Russia without any idea what they would do if they had to divert to an airport there. As for sanctions, they are mostly concerned with end users, and if Air India flies in their own aircraft with their own parts and engineers, they really present no barrier to getting the aircraft fixed. A lot of tedious paperwork is probably the biggest challenge. (The logistical challenges if it had required an engine change are certainly real, though.)

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> if Air India flies in their own aircraft with their own parts and engineers, they really present no barrier to getting the aircraft fixed If Air India wants to risk sanctions, whereby their entire fleet loses access to new planes, engines, parts and servicing, sure.
- nightowl_games 3y ago
  If the West wants to push India into Russia's open arms, sure.
  - viksit 3y ago
    India and russia are actually pretty tightly coupled in defence and civil industry actually…
    - batter 3y ago
      Just watch hiw rhis will change. It's clear now that russian military is garbage (mostly).
    - sudosysgen 3y ago
      And the US is making a huge effort in stopping that.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > the US is making a huge effort in stopping that We’re looking the other way. India is more important as a regional relation than global player, and the degree to which it’s practically enabling Moscow is minimal. India has its own interest in not becoming a Chinese vassal, something Russia is rapidly devolving into. Any military planner in India worth their salt is keenly aware that in a conflict between New Delhi and Beijing, one would have the leverage in Moscow.
        sudosysgen 3y ago
        You should take a look at the ongoing deals and negotiations between the US on India. You're right that as it stands Moscow is important, but as I said, the US is making a huge effort in changing that.
  - genmud 3y ago
    They seem pretty cozy at the moment, would be more impactful for them than the west.
    - willcipriano 3y ago
      Isn't Europe buying Russia petro products via India? https://www.ft.com/content/ebb851db-6ff6-4334-a47f-dd176b2adf2f https://www.ft.com/content/ebb851db-6ff6-4334-a47f-dd176b2ad...
      - actionfromafar 3y ago
        What's your point?
- YetAnotherNick 3y ago
  > If Air India wants to risk sanctions, whereby their entire fleet loses access to new planes, engines, parts and servicing, sure. I highly doubt that because these kind of sanctions given with absolute bullshit reason would really hurt west's claim of being better. Even the Russia's sanctions is going really badly for Europe and west is not in a good time to extend their arms further. Also China is developing its own airplane and now is definitely not a great time to encourage other countries which don't have good relation with west.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > these kind of sanctions given with absolute bullshit reason would really hurt west's claim of being better Point is if Air India strolled into Russia with restricted engine components, there would be consequences. Everyone at GE involved would be subject to criminal investigation. Everyone's banking relationships would be in jeopardy. Sanctions indirectly enforce themselves. Air India could get a waiver, but that takes time, time during which that plane would be stranded and unproductive. Those were the stakes here. Because nobody is stupid enough to stick their finger to U.S. sanctions and rely on the “West’s claim of being better.”
    - kaliqt 3y ago
      Just gotta love politics making everyone's life more difficult.
      - j16sdiz 3y ago
        sure full scale thermal nuclear war is better than politics.
    - YetAnotherNick 3y ago
      West is all about PR and jeopardizing 100s of billions of dollars of trade for few equipments that Air India shifted from India to Russia to help a stranded airplane is the worst possible thing any politician could do. And what has it to do with GE? The equipment belongs to Air India in India. And just if you don't know, India is not part of US Russia sanctions and trades with both.
- tushar-r 3y ago
  >f Air India wants to risk sanctions, There are approx. 34 Billion[1] reasons why that won't happen. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/14/air-india-places-orders-for-470-boeing-and-airbus-aircraft.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/14/air-india-places-orders-for-...
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > >f Air India wants to risk sanctions, There are approx. 34 Billion[1] reasons why that won't happen See my other comment [1]. Nobody thinks the U.S. will permanently stick Air India with sanctions. But everyone knows there is a gray area during which, if you're an American or do business with America, particularly if you are in a regulated field, you do not want to be the banker or engineer who kept doing business with an entity that just publicly violated sanctions. And both sides' politicians would love this. Private parties bear the cost. New Delhi can rail on American imperialism, the immorality of sanctions and the pragmatism of its geopolitical strategy. Washington can talk up how it pragmatically exempted India while throwing pot shots at Russia's isolation. It's a manufactured crisis with a simple solution whose costs are borne by a third party: that's catnip to electeds. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36289706 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36289706
    - jhugo 3y ago
      > just publicly violated sanctions Please enlighten everyone: in what way is an Indian entity paying their own engineers to use their own parts to fix their own aircraft “violating sanctions”? Please give as much detail as possible.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > in what way is an Indian entity paying their own engineers to use their own parts to fix their own aircraft “violating sanctions” These products are subjext to reëxport controls—that’s what sanctions bite with. Air India transporting a controlled engine component into Russia violates those June 2022 sanctions. (It’s the same reason e.g. Germany can block the reëxport of its tanks, or Russia can tell India it’s not allowed to donate its new Su’s to the USAF.) It’s similar to if Air India starts importing American computer components and reëxporting them to North Korea; it would be blocked from accessing American and allied services. That’s the entire point of sanctions. This is clearly-established law and precedent that is easily available from any competent attorney in India familiar with export/import of restricted goods.
- jhugo 3y ago
  This kind of shrill nonsense is exactly what I was talking about. Rather than posting about risks you invented, learn a little about the subject you’re discussing. There is no barrier other than paperwork to Air India flying their own engineers (which they in fact did) along with parts to fix their own aircraft, which will not remain in Russia.
lionkor 3y ago
I went to Russia twice since the start of the war, and really, other than border control agents being swapped for FSB, and them pulling a few people (me included) to the side for brief questioning, it was all quite normal and friendly as always.
- jwr 3y ago
  Lest we forget, things are somewhat less normal and friendly in places where Russia currently drops bombs and shells on people's heads.
  - midasuni 3y ago
    Have you been into Ukraine recently? It’s perfectly normal and friendly, at least was last year when Kyiv was being hit far harder than now
    - aziaziazi 3y ago
      Yeah definitely recommend Kherson and its 2023 spring flooding. Commuting to work by boat Venice’s style and big free surprise washing of entire neighborhoods. What a normal and friendly place!
      - vGPU 3y ago
        To be honest, Ukraine wasn’t ever exactly “normal and friendly”. I’ve been there multiple times. The last time I was in Kiev I witnessed a drunk man urinating in public - at noon - on a center street. Everyone treated this like it was a perfectly normal occurrence. It wasn’t a bad place to spend a few weeks but you would definitely get the occasional reminder that hey, this isn’t Europe anymore, Dorothy.
        filoleg 3y ago
        > The last time I was in Kiev I witnessed a drunk man urinating in public - at noon - on a center street. Everyone treated this like it was a perfectly normal occurrence. If this shocks you, you might want to avoid visiting San Francisco. I hate pulling out this tired trope, but it felt actually appropriate here.
tazjin 3y ago
It's because the majority of Westerners, especially Americans, have at best a comic-like understanding of "strange" countries like Russia.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  Yet the article cites a concrete example of similar sanctions causing exactly that problem. > For instance, when a Norwegian 737-8 MAX diverted to Shiraz, Iran in December 2018, the aircraft sat on the ground in Iran for 70 days. Much of that time was spent arranging an export license for a CFM LEAP1-B engine for the stricken aircraft. “It’s gonna be stuck there for some time” doesn’t appear to be a comical understanding of the situation.
  - tazjin 3y ago
    Thinking that passengers will get taken hostage is a comical understanding of the situation. It's also pretty funny that you're referring to a self-imposed problem by the West as an example for an issue with the non-West.
    - sofixa 3y ago
      > Thinking that passengers will get taken hostage is a comical understanding of the situation. Are we talking about the same Russia that is engaged in a genocide against it's neighbour? The one that purposefully destroys civilian infrastructure to cause death and suffering? Kidnaps children? Did multiple false flag operations against it's own civilians? Murders journalists and dissidents, even abroad, in brutal ways, with nerve agents and radioactive materials? That Russia, right? Taking civilians from an airliner hostage wouldn't even get close to the top 10 of their state organised terror acts in the past 2 years...
      - SomeoneWithAnS 3y ago
        [flagged]
sofixa 3y ago
> speculation about the crew or passengers being taken hostage (!) Russia is a terrorist state, run by war criminals that has engaged in genocide, horrific human rights abuses, where rule of law doesn't matter. Yes, them kidnapping civilians isn't out of the question because they literally kidnap children en masse from the neighbour they've invaded. > Russia impounding/stealing the aircraft It's not like they didn't do that after the beginning of the war, so it wasn't a crazy thing to be fearful of Russia pulling off. What made that unlikely was the fact that it's an Indian airliner; if it was an American one, I wouldn't have been surprised if they did decide to steal it. https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/russia-must-return-over-400-stolen-airplanes-meps-demand/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/russia-m... > they really present no barrier to getting the aircraft fixed Except for all those listed in the article, such as a full engine replacement being hard to do at an airport not equipped for it, the engine being very hard to ship because it only fits on 2 plane models, with very few operators available, etc. Just because the repairs turned out to be quick doesn't mean that a full engine replacement wouldn't have been a significant multi-week undertaking.
- vGPU 3y ago
  >US is a terrorist state, run by war criminals that has engaged in genocide, horrific human rights abuses, where rule of law doesn't matter. Yes, them kidnapping civilians isn't out of the question Oh dear. Anyone remember Guantánamo? Tuskegee? The Rwandan genocide?
  - sofixa 3y ago
    If whataboutism is the best defence of Russia you can come up with, you're not denying anything, right? Once that's out of the way and we've cleared that indeed Russia is a terrorist state committing a genocide, we can also discuss the now lone superpower. The US indeed has committed a lot of war crimes and crimes against humanity. Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib are more relevant than the Tuskagee experiments which ended 50 years ago. However the US hasn't actually perpetrated a genocide, unlike Russia which is actively engaged in one as a matter of state policy. The Rwandan genocide, complicit as the US and other countries such as France and Belgium may be, was perpetrated and organised by Rwandans against other Rwandans. Comparing the two is useful to an extent, but excusing Russia's actions with "well the US does something vaguely similar on a small scale, so that's all fine" is bullshit. Also, comparing rule of law in Russia vs US is.. laughable. Feel free to share examples of dissidents being murdered brutally in broad daylight recently with no consequences.
csense 3y ago
> crew or passengers being taken hostage Russia has been known to imprison Western civilians on trumped-up drug charges, then exchange them for hardcore criminals imprisoned in the US or elsewhere (the recent exchange of Brittney Griner, a basketball player arrested for having a bit of cannabis oil, for Viktor Bout, an arms dealer nicknamed the "Merchant of Death", comes to mind). > Russia impounding/stealing the aircraft Other countries are impounding Russians' yachts, I can see where the Russian government would see it as reasonable to impound planes in retaliation.

by jhugo 3y ago

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> if Air India flies in their own aircraft with their own parts and engineers, they really present no barrier to getting the aircraft fixed If Air India wants to risk sanctions, whereby their entire fleet loses access to new planes, engines, parts and servicing, sure.

nightowl_games 3y ago
If the West wants to push India into Russia's open arms, sure.
- viksit 3y ago
  India and russia are actually pretty tightly coupled in defence and civil industry actually…
  - batter 3y ago
    Just watch hiw rhis will change. It's clear now that russian military is garbage (mostly).
  - sudosysgen 3y ago
    And the US is making a huge effort in stopping that.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > the US is making a huge effort in stopping that We’re looking the other way. India is more important as a regional relation than global player, and the degree to which it’s practically enabling Moscow is minimal. India has its own interest in not becoming a Chinese vassal, something Russia is rapidly devolving into. Any military planner in India worth their salt is keenly aware that in a conflict between New Delhi and Beijing, one would have the leverage in Moscow.
      - sudosysgen 3y ago
        You should take a look at the ongoing deals and negotiations between the US on India. You're right that as it stands Moscow is important, but as I said, the US is making a huge effort in changing that.
- genmud 3y ago
  They seem pretty cozy at the moment, would be more impactful for them than the west.
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    Isn't Europe buying Russia petro products via India? https://www.ft.com/content/ebb851db-6ff6-4334-a47f-dd176b2adf2f https://www.ft.com/content/ebb851db-6ff6-4334-a47f-dd176b2ad...
    - actionfromafar 3y ago
      What's your point?
YetAnotherNick 3y ago
> If Air India wants to risk sanctions, whereby their entire fleet loses access to new planes, engines, parts and servicing, sure. I highly doubt that because these kind of sanctions given with absolute bullshit reason would really hurt west's claim of being better. Even the Russia's sanctions is going really badly for Europe and west is not in a good time to extend their arms further. Also China is developing its own airplane and now is definitely not a great time to encourage other countries which don't have good relation with west.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > these kind of sanctions given with absolute bullshit reason would really hurt west's claim of being better Point is if Air India strolled into Russia with restricted engine components, there would be consequences. Everyone at GE involved would be subject to criminal investigation. Everyone's banking relationships would be in jeopardy. Sanctions indirectly enforce themselves. Air India could get a waiver, but that takes time, time during which that plane would be stranded and unproductive. Those were the stakes here. Because nobody is stupid enough to stick their finger to U.S. sanctions and rely on the “West’s claim of being better.”
  - kaliqt 3y ago
    Just gotta love politics making everyone's life more difficult.
    - j16sdiz 3y ago
      sure full scale thermal nuclear war is better than politics.
  - YetAnotherNick 3y ago
    West is all about PR and jeopardizing 100s of billions of dollars of trade for few equipments that Air India shifted from India to Russia to help a stranded airplane is the worst possible thing any politician could do. And what has it to do with GE? The equipment belongs to Air India in India. And just if you don't know, India is not part of US Russia sanctions and trades with both.
tushar-r 3y ago
>f Air India wants to risk sanctions, There are approx. 34 Billion[1] reasons why that won't happen. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/14/air-india-places-orders-for-470-boeing-and-airbus-aircraft.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/14/air-india-places-orders-for-...
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > >f Air India wants to risk sanctions, There are approx. 34 Billion[1] reasons why that won't happen See my other comment [1]. Nobody thinks the U.S. will permanently stick Air India with sanctions. But everyone knows there is a gray area during which, if you're an American or do business with America, particularly if you are in a regulated field, you do not want to be the banker or engineer who kept doing business with an entity that just publicly violated sanctions. And both sides' politicians would love this. Private parties bear the cost. New Delhi can rail on American imperialism, the immorality of sanctions and the pragmatism of its geopolitical strategy. Washington can talk up how it pragmatically exempted India while throwing pot shots at Russia's isolation. It's a manufactured crisis with a simple solution whose costs are borne by a third party: that's catnip to electeds. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36289706 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36289706
  - jhugo 3y ago
    > just publicly violated sanctions Please enlighten everyone: in what way is an Indian entity paying their own engineers to use their own parts to fix their own aircraft “violating sanctions”? Please give as much detail as possible.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > in what way is an Indian entity paying their own engineers to use their own parts to fix their own aircraft “violating sanctions” These products are subjext to reëxport controls—that’s what sanctions bite with. Air India transporting a controlled engine component into Russia violates those June 2022 sanctions. (It’s the same reason e.g. Germany can block the reëxport of its tanks, or Russia can tell India it’s not allowed to donate its new Su’s to the USAF.) It’s similar to if Air India starts importing American computer components and reëxporting them to North Korea; it would be blocked from accessing American and allied services. That’s the entire point of sanctions. This is clearly-established law and precedent that is easily available from any competent attorney in India familiar with export/import of restricted goods.
jhugo 3y ago
This kind of shrill nonsense is exactly what I was talking about. Rather than posting about risks you invented, learn a little about the subject you’re discussing. There is no barrier other than paperwork to Air India flying their own engineers (which they in fact did) along with parts to fix their own aircraft, which will not remain in Russia.

lionkor 3y ago

I went to Russia twice since the start of the war, and really, other than border control agents being swapped for FSB, and them pulling a few people (me included) to the side for brief questioning, it was all quite normal and friendly as always.

jwr 3y ago
Lest we forget, things are somewhat less normal and friendly in places where Russia currently drops bombs and shells on people's heads.
- midasuni 3y ago
  Have you been into Ukraine recently? It’s perfectly normal and friendly, at least was last year when Kyiv was being hit far harder than now
  - aziaziazi 3y ago
    Yeah definitely recommend Kherson and its 2023 spring flooding. Commuting to work by boat Venice’s style and big free surprise washing of entire neighborhoods. What a normal and friendly place!
    - vGPU 3y ago
      To be honest, Ukraine wasn’t ever exactly “normal and friendly”. I’ve been there multiple times. The last time I was in Kiev I witnessed a drunk man urinating in public - at noon - on a center street. Everyone treated this like it was a perfectly normal occurrence. It wasn’t a bad place to spend a few weeks but you would definitely get the occasional reminder that hey, this isn’t Europe anymore, Dorothy.
      - filoleg 3y ago
        > The last time I was in Kiev I witnessed a drunk man urinating in public - at noon - on a center street. Everyone treated this like it was a perfectly normal occurrence. If this shocks you, you might want to avoid visiting San Francisco. I hate pulling out this tired trope, but it felt actually appropriate here.

tazjin 3y ago

It's because the majority of Westerners, especially Americans, have at best a comic-like understanding of "strange" countries like Russia.

ceejayoz 3y ago
Yet the article cites a concrete example of similar sanctions causing exactly that problem. > For instance, when a Norwegian 737-8 MAX diverted to Shiraz, Iran in December 2018, the aircraft sat on the ground in Iran for 70 days. Much of that time was spent arranging an export license for a CFM LEAP1-B engine for the stricken aircraft. “It’s gonna be stuck there for some time” doesn’t appear to be a comical understanding of the situation.
- tazjin 3y ago
  Thinking that passengers will get taken hostage is a comical understanding of the situation. It's also pretty funny that you're referring to a self-imposed problem by the West as an example for an issue with the non-West.
  - sofixa 3y ago
    > Thinking that passengers will get taken hostage is a comical understanding of the situation. Are we talking about the same Russia that is engaged in a genocide against it's neighbour? The one that purposefully destroys civilian infrastructure to cause death and suffering? Kidnaps children? Did multiple false flag operations against it's own civilians? Murders journalists and dissidents, even abroad, in brutal ways, with nerve agents and radioactive materials? That Russia, right? Taking civilians from an airliner hostage wouldn't even get close to the top 10 of their state organised terror acts in the past 2 years...
    - SomeoneWithAnS 3y ago
      [flagged]

sofixa 3y ago

> speculation about the crew or passengers being taken hostage (!) Russia is a terrorist state, run by war criminals that has engaged in genocide, horrific human rights abuses, where rule of law doesn't matter. Yes, them kidnapping civilians isn't out of the question because they literally kidnap children en masse from the neighbour they've invaded. > Russia impounding/stealing the aircraft It's not like they didn't do that after the beginning of the war, so it wasn't a crazy thing to be fearful of Russia pulling off. What made that unlikely was the fact that it's an Indian airliner; if it was an American one, I wouldn't have been surprised if they did decide to steal it. https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/russia-must-return-over-400-stolen-airplanes-meps-demand/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/russia-m... > they really present no barrier to getting the aircraft fixed Except for all those listed in the article, such as a full engine replacement being hard to do at an airport not equipped for it, the engine being very hard to ship because it only fits on 2 plane models, with very few operators available, etc. Just because the repairs turned out to be quick doesn't mean that a full engine replacement wouldn't have been a significant multi-week undertaking.

vGPU 3y ago
>US is a terrorist state, run by war criminals that has engaged in genocide, horrific human rights abuses, where rule of law doesn't matter. Yes, them kidnapping civilians isn't out of the question Oh dear. Anyone remember Guantánamo? Tuskegee? The Rwandan genocide?
- sofixa 3y ago
  If whataboutism is the best defence of Russia you can come up with, you're not denying anything, right? Once that's out of the way and we've cleared that indeed Russia is a terrorist state committing a genocide, we can also discuss the now lone superpower. The US indeed has committed a lot of war crimes and crimes against humanity. Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib are more relevant than the Tuskagee experiments which ended 50 years ago. However the US hasn't actually perpetrated a genocide, unlike Russia which is actively engaged in one as a matter of state policy. The Rwandan genocide, complicit as the US and other countries such as France and Belgium may be, was perpetrated and organised by Rwandans against other Rwandans. Comparing the two is useful to an extent, but excusing Russia's actions with "well the US does something vaguely similar on a small scale, so that's all fine" is bullshit. Also, comparing rule of law in Russia vs US is.. laughable. Feel free to share examples of dissidents being murdered brutally in broad daylight recently with no consequences.

csense 3y ago

> crew or passengers being taken hostage Russia has been known to imprison Western civilians on trumped-up drug charges, then exchange them for hardcore criminals imprisoned in the US or elsewhere (the recent exchange of Brittney Griner, a basketball player arrested for having a bit of cannabis oil, for Viktor Bout, an arms dealer nicknamed the "Merchant of Death", comes to mind). > Russia impounding/stealing the aircraft Other countries are impounding Russians' yachts, I can see where the Russian government would see it as reasonable to impound planes in retaliation.