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I thought the Anandtech coverage did a bit better job filling in both background & details. https://www.anandtech.com/show/18894/intel-details-powervia-tech-bac

I thought the Anandtech coverage did a bit better job filling in both background & details. https://www.anandtech.com/show/18894/intel-details-powervia-tech-backside-power-on-schedule-for-2024 https://www.anandtech.com/show/18894/intel-details-powervia-...

pyrolistical 3y ago
Ads are getting in the way on mobile. Don’t know how sites like this are going to exist. For me personally the content does not out weigh the ads
- KingLancelot 3y ago
  [dead]
- bee_rider 3y ago
  The site looks great on mobile Safari at least. Maybe your system has an adblocker available?
  - pyrolistical 3y ago
    Installed Adblock plus. No change. What did you use?
    - nozzlegear 3y ago
      I use Firefox Focus as my content blocker on iOS, it works really well imo.
    - wpm 3y ago
      AdGuard has always worked fine for me on iOS.
    - esperent 3y ago
      Ublock Origin on Kiwi browser for Android. Also NextDNS. Zero ads.
    - lstamour 3y ago
      Adblock Plus like many adblockers gets industry funding for a whitelist of “acceptable ads”. uBlock Origin, 1Blocker, NextDNS, ControlD, and sometimes AdGuard tend to block more. The DNS adblock options are particularly interesting as they can block ads in any app, similar to running PiHole or a hosts file, but in the cloud. There are also extensions to change the website to dark mode (Dark Reader), accept some but not all cookie prompts on your behalf (Consent-O-Matic) and block “Open in App” messages (Banish) or annoyances (Hush) or other annoying behaviours (StopTheMadness). Basically… you can have a browsing experience that’s nice and sane, and just the way you want it.
      - pyrolistical 3y ago
        Thanks. Adguard worked
    - bee_rider 3y ago
      Hmm. I guess I use Firefox Focus. I’d actually forgotten that I’d set it up, and thought I was just using something built in to the OS.
    - bombolo 3y ago
      uBlock origin is the one you want
- midoridensha 3y ago
  I don't see any ads there at all. Aren't you using an ad-blocker?
- e2le 3y ago
  Site looks great to me! Perhaps your platform has a way of installing a content blocker like ublock?
- foobarbecue 3y ago
  Same here, chrome on Android. Luckily the diagrams were still visible and that's all I really needed.
- chaxor 3y ago
  Don't ever allow us by default. Use umatrix
- lelanthran 3y ago
  I didn't see any ads. Reading on my phone using Firefox with adblockers. Why are you using no adblockers.
wpietri 3y ago
Thanks. Very helpful. One of the wild things to me is how incredibly elaborate chipmaking as become over the years. Per Wikipedia, the 6502's layout was made with "a very manual process done with color pencils and vellum paper". That's the processor that launched the personal computing revolution, powering the Apple II, Commodore PET and VIC-20, the Acorn, and the BBC Micro. Nearly 50 years later, things have gotten so fiendishly complex that "flip it over and put some stuff on the back" is a major industry change requiring who knows how many billions in R&D.
- hn_thrwn 3y ago
  Chip making is the first industry that was automates by computers. Much like how steam engines were first used in coal mines.
  - nightowl_games 3y ago
    "Chip making is automated." Is not a true statement.
    - wpietri 3y ago
      I mean, steam engines didn't fully automate mining either, but I still get his point.
    - bbor 3y ago
      “Automated” != “Fully Automated”/“Autonomous” IMO. I took one class on this years ago and didn’t pay a lot of attention so disregard me if I’m super off base, but Silicon does rely heavily on computer aided design, no? I think a more charitable reading of the parent in that light makes it an actually quite insightful comment
    - hn_thrwn 3y ago
      Wow so we still design CPUs on silk screens by hand?
      - 3y ago
metadat 3y ago
Does Backside Power Delivery mean the silicon area of the chip will be placed upside down on the motherboard to ensure efficient heat dissipation? (Since the power source will be on the opposite side compared to current day silicon) P.s. in case you never heard of BPD technology, https://semiengineering.com/challenges-in-backside-power-delivery/ https://semiengineering.com/challenges-in-backside-power-del... is also informative (thanks @rektide for the Anand link!) Edit: Relevant quote from TFA which somewhat answers the above question: > Of note, because the carrier wafer is on the signal side of the chip, this means it presents another layer of material between the transistors and the cooler. Intel’s techniques to improve heat transfer take this into account, but for PC enthusiasts accustomed to transistors at the top of their chip, this is going to be a significant change. TL;DR: No.
- rektide 3y ago
  Previously we were using flip chip where silicon was exposed. With backside power delivery, there's now wiring on both sides of the chip. The transistors are buried. The article discusses how debugging is harder since nothing is exposed, and how there's now more thermal resistance. Intel's implementation has other factors, as discussed in the Anandtech article. Normally there's a fairly thick silicon base underneath the transistor layer, but Intel polishes that away to nearly nothing after the frontside signal wire layers are put down (to make hooking up the backside power easier). That greatly reduced structural strength & is a somewhat taxing process, so before doing the polishing down, they put a carrier wafer atop the frontside signal wire layers, adding some structural strength. And there it stays. Which means now that the top of the chip has a carrier wafer just for structure. Then the signal wire layers. Then the transistor layer with a bunch of PowerVias also in it. Then the backside power layer. In the first sample chip, there's still a quite a few signal layers, 14, Vs 15 on other chips. Only down by 1. But better chip utilization and other benefits (ir droop). The backside is 4 layer. Maybe maybe the backside power delivery might have (or maybe could someday) greatly let them cut down on the number of wire layers, which are all now between the transistors & the heatsink. But not yet. So there's a significant number of layers of things burying the transistors now. None the less, the thermals here looked fine. It's a great article.

pyrolistical 3y ago

Ads are getting in the way on mobile. Don’t know how sites like this are going to exist. For me personally the content does not out weigh the ads

KingLancelot 3y ago
[dead]
bee_rider 3y ago
The site looks great on mobile Safari at least. Maybe your system has an adblocker available?
- pyrolistical 3y ago
  Installed Adblock plus. No change. What did you use?
  - nozzlegear 3y ago
    I use Firefox Focus as my content blocker on iOS, it works really well imo.
  - wpm 3y ago
    AdGuard has always worked fine for me on iOS.
  - esperent 3y ago
    Ublock Origin on Kiwi browser for Android. Also NextDNS. Zero ads.
  - lstamour 3y ago
    Adblock Plus like many adblockers gets industry funding for a whitelist of “acceptable ads”. uBlock Origin, 1Blocker, NextDNS, ControlD, and sometimes AdGuard tend to block more. The DNS adblock options are particularly interesting as they can block ads in any app, similar to running PiHole or a hosts file, but in the cloud. There are also extensions to change the website to dark mode (Dark Reader), accept some but not all cookie prompts on your behalf (Consent-O-Matic) and block “Open in App” messages (Banish) or annoyances (Hush) or other annoying behaviours (StopTheMadness). Basically… you can have a browsing experience that’s nice and sane, and just the way you want it.
    - pyrolistical 3y ago
      Thanks. Adguard worked
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    Hmm. I guess I use Firefox Focus. I’d actually forgotten that I’d set it up, and thought I was just using something built in to the OS.
  - bombolo 3y ago
    uBlock origin is the one you want
midoridensha 3y ago
I don't see any ads there at all. Aren't you using an ad-blocker?
e2le 3y ago
Site looks great to me! Perhaps your platform has a way of installing a content blocker like ublock?
foobarbecue 3y ago
Same here, chrome on Android. Luckily the diagrams were still visible and that's all I really needed.
chaxor 3y ago
Don't ever allow us by default. Use umatrix
lelanthran 3y ago
I didn't see any ads. Reading on my phone using Firefox with adblockers. Why are you using no adblockers.

wpietri 3y ago

Thanks. Very helpful. One of the wild things to me is how incredibly elaborate chipmaking as become over the years. Per Wikipedia, the 6502's layout was made with "a very manual process done with color pencils and vellum paper". That's the processor that launched the personal computing revolution, powering the Apple II, Commodore PET and VIC-20, the Acorn, and the BBC Micro. Nearly 50 years later, things have gotten so fiendishly complex that "flip it over and put some stuff on the back" is a major industry change requiring who knows how many billions in R&D.

hn_thrwn 3y ago
Chip making is the first industry that was automates by computers. Much like how steam engines were first used in coal mines.
- nightowl_games 3y ago
  "Chip making is automated." Is not a true statement.
  - wpietri 3y ago
    I mean, steam engines didn't fully automate mining either, but I still get his point.
  - bbor 3y ago
    “Automated” != “Fully Automated”/“Autonomous” IMO. I took one class on this years ago and didn’t pay a lot of attention so disregard me if I’m super off base, but Silicon does rely heavily on computer aided design, no? I think a more charitable reading of the parent in that light makes it an actually quite insightful comment
  - hn_thrwn 3y ago
    Wow so we still design CPUs on silk screens by hand?
    - 3y ago

metadat 3y ago

Does Backside Power Delivery mean the silicon area of the chip will be placed upside down on the motherboard to ensure efficient heat dissipation? (Since the power source will be on the opposite side compared to current day silicon) P.s. in case you never heard of BPD technology, https://semiengineering.com/challenges-in-backside-power-delivery/ https://semiengineering.com/challenges-in-backside-power-del... is also informative (thanks @rektide for the Anand link!) Edit: Relevant quote from TFA which somewhat answers the above question: > Of note, because the carrier wafer is on the signal side of the chip, this means it presents another layer of material between the transistors and the cooler. Intel’s techniques to improve heat transfer take this into account, but for PC enthusiasts accustomed to transistors at the top of their chip, this is going to be a significant change. TL;DR: No.

rektide 3y ago
Previously we were using flip chip where silicon was exposed. With backside power delivery, there's now wiring on both sides of the chip. The transistors are buried. The article discusses how debugging is harder since nothing is exposed, and how there's now more thermal resistance. Intel's implementation has other factors, as discussed in the Anandtech article. Normally there's a fairly thick silicon base underneath the transistor layer, but Intel polishes that away to nearly nothing after the frontside signal wire layers are put down (to make hooking up the backside power easier). That greatly reduced structural strength & is a somewhat taxing process, so before doing the polishing down, they put a carrier wafer atop the frontside signal wire layers, adding some structural strength. And there it stays. Which means now that the top of the chip has a carrier wafer just for structure. Then the signal wire layers. Then the transistor layer with a bunch of PowerVias also in it. Then the backside power layer. In the first sample chip, there's still a quite a few signal layers, 14, Vs 15 on other chips. Only down by 1. But better chip utilization and other benefits (ir droop). The backside is 4 layer. Maybe maybe the backside power delivery might have (or maybe could someday) greatly let them cut down on the number of wire layers, which are all now between the transistors & the heatsink. But not yet. So there's a significant number of layers of things burying the transistors now. None the less, the thermals here looked fine. It's a great article.