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Intel is all-in on backside power delivery
- brucethemoose2 3y agoHeh, I remember when this was the norm: Samsung, TSMC, and GloFo waiting for Intel to work out the kinks and tooling before implementing it themselves.
- baybal2 3y ago[dead]
- robertlagrant 3y ago(I don't understand why sibling comment was downvoted so much with no comment.)
- bee_rider 3y agoI think comments on this site start greying out with just 1-2 downvotes, and we can’t see each other’s scores, right? So it is possible that just a couple people didn’t like it for random/obscure reasons. It appears to be positive now, or at least it isn’t greyed out anymore. I wouldn’t wonder too much about these temporarily downvotes comments, they usually bounce back pretty quick if they are any good.
- yvdriess 3y agoTo be fair, most of that research happens pre-competitively (cfr imec roadmap). That includes working with tool makers to work out the kinks. Of course there is a big hurdle from there to an actual product-scale deployment.
- dtx1 3y agoI know this might break the rules a little but can we all just agree on one thing: Chip Making technology is fucking cool.
- sillywalk 3y agoApparently chip-making uses (or used?) Chlorine trifluoride - the stuff that can set asbestos or sand on fire - to clean chemical vapour deposition chambers.
- Ygg2 3y agoIt sets ashes on fire. The only way to stop ClF3 fire is to wait it out. Shit is just unstoppable. Reminds me of FOOF. In a bad way.
- dtx1 3y agohttps://interestingengineering.com/science/chlorine-trifluoride-set-fire-glass https://interestingengineering.com/science/chlorine-trifluor... > ”is, of course, extremely toxic, but that’s the least of the problem. It is hypergolic with every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water-with which it reacts explosively." He continues, "It can be kept in some of the ordinary structural metals-steel, copper, aluminum, etc.-because of the formation of a thin film of insoluble metal fluoride which protects the bulk of the metal, just as the invisible coat of oxide on aluminum keeps it from burning up in the atmosphere. If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes.”
- ChrisMarshallNY 3y agoI don't have the link, but Derek Lowe did a great In The Pipeline on this stuff.
- scrlk 3y agohttps://www.science.org/content/blog-post/sand-won-t-save-you-time https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/sand-won-t-save-yo... All posts under the "Things I Won't Work With" series: https://www.science.org/topic/blog-category/things-i-wont-work-with https://www.science.org/topic/blog-category/things-i-wont-wo...
- HeWhoLurksLate 3y agoReading stuff like this makes some part of me really happy- I'll probably never even get into this part of the industry, but reading about breakthroughs like this always just feel really amazing
- ihaveajob 3y agoI worked at Intel for 3 years and I felt similarly. I was in a group writing software to help the R&D physicists figure out the kinks of the low-level devices (next-gen transistors) way before going to silicon. The day-to-day work was relatively mundane, but talking to these people about their problems and needs made me feel like I was doing my little bit to move humankind forward.
- jiggawatts 3y agoSoon: "Doing my little bit to move AI-kind forward."
- quickthrower2 3y agoI can imagine, you are helping in something so central to the supply chain, you know what you do will last in impact (even if the code doesn’t last)
- melling 3y agoWhere does Intel currently stand in the race with AMD? AMD has been doing extremely well while Intel hasn’t been able to regroup.
- 55873445216111 3y agoPower Via is more of a fab technology and AMD is fabless. Therefore not really possible to compare directly in this aspect. AMD relies on TSMC or Samsung to make their chips.
- handsclean 3y agohttps://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_value_available.html#xy_scatter_graph https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_value_available.html#xy_sca... It looks like Intel still has a solid lead in single core perf, which is frankly the biggest factor for me for a general purpose desktop CPU. Of course, other uses have other priorities. The charts are missing one important measure, power efficiency.
- civilitty 3y agoHopefully this will be the kick in the backside that Intel needs to start leading again.
- boringuser2 3y agoIntel is producing amazing GPUs AND CPUs right now.
- Tuna-Fish 3y agoThey really are not making amazing GPUs. The ones on the market are only decent value because Intel is selling them far below what it cost to make them, because there's no way they could sell them at proper prices. Even still, they have ceased production, and the product is still on the shelves.
- LASR 3y agoHonestly being anywhere on the competitive spectrum is pretty impressive. GPUs aren’t just some commodity product. They’ve required decades of iteration to lead to the flagship products we have today. To achieve at least a fraction of that is an achievement of itself. But yeah I am going to hold on to my NVDA for now.
- bee_rider 3y agoHaha, yeah, in any reasonable comparison to like “complexity of things that humans have made over all time,” they are definitely pretty amazing. But they appear to be third best among their peers. I’d take an Intel dGPU though.
- rektide 3y agoI'd have it the other way around. Intel's doing OK with cpus but man their P-core is way too big & hot. They've been adding and adding to the same core design for a decade & it's a monster. Also their process is still flagging. They've managed well for such limitations but real change has to come, soon. Meanwhile Arc is kicking ass. It's launch was a dud, but the team has really kept pushing on making the chip run better and better & it's such a great value now. People need to reassess the preconceptions they formed at launch. https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/intel-arc-graphics-cards-silently-excellent/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/intel-arc-graphics-c...
- jmisavage 3y agoBackside power delivery should help portables and maybe get some of these crazy desktop numbers down. If all goes as planned Intel looks to have a 2 year jump on TSMC based on current timetables. But I'm worried about them adding nanosheet transistors around the same time. They got into problems before being too ambitious and having a stalled roadmap for a very long time.
- marricks 3y ago> adding nanosheet transistors This is may be to there benefit, as it gives them another 5 years to say “oh we’ll be ahead soon” without actually releasing anything.
- genmud 3y agoAssuming they deliver on a timetable they say they will, which intel has had a well established track record of not doing. With intel, over the last 5-10 years I don't believe anything they say until there are chips in peoples hands at a volume that is meaningful.
- georgeburdell 3y agoGelsinger (re)introduced OKRs a couple of years ago. Everyone's being held accountable for their promises at all levels now. It's probably caused them to stop dreaming so much and get more conservative but predictable.
- PedroBatista 3y agoI don't think Intel's problem for the last +10 years has been dreaming too much. It's more to do with a deeply dysfunctional and arrogant organization from top to bottom due to many factors, one of them being having the market "cornered" for the previous ~10 years.
- davedx 3y agoNothing about Intel right now is conservative. They're spending astronomical amounts of money on R&D and capex. They're "all-in" on multiple strategic directions.
- rektide 3y agoI thought the Anandtech coverage did a bit better job filling in both background & details. https://www.anandtech.com/show/18894/intel-details-powervia-tech-backside-power-on-schedule-for-2024 https://www.anandtech.com/show/18894/intel-details-powervia-...
- pyrolistical 3y agoAds are getting in the way on mobile. Don’t know how sites like this are going to exist. For me personally the content does not out weigh the ads
- KingLancelot 3y ago[dead]
- bee_rider 3y agoThe site looks great on mobile Safari at least. Maybe your system has an adblocker available?
- pyrolistical 3y agoInstalled Adblock plus. No change. What did you use?
- nozzlegear 3y agoI use Firefox Focus as my content blocker on iOS, it works really well imo.
- wpm 3y agoAdGuard has always worked fine for me on iOS.
- esperent 3y agoUblock Origin on Kiwi browser for Android. Also NextDNS. Zero ads.
- dboreham 3y agoUnfortunate name.
- dmvdoug 3y agoI don’t know, it made me snicker. But then again, I do spend most of my working hours among 14 year olds.
- DavidPiper 3y agoYeah, sadly my first thought was "Intel CPUs are powered by farting now?" Second thought was "I wonder if it reduces fan noise."
- bee_rider 3y agohttps://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/rectium.html https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/rectium.html
- wincy 3y agoReminds me of a few months ago when Nvidia announced their new CuLitho fabrication process, which is Spanish means “cute little ass”. I hope Nvidia adds backside power delivery to their new CuLitho chips, just so we can get as many jokes as possible out of this fab cycle.
- pbj1968 3y agoCulitho != Culito
- raziel2701 3y agoH is silent in spanish, so when spoken culitho = culito
- wincy 3y agoOh come on we’re allowed to have fun at Intel and Nvidia’s expense. This is like the most niche joke if I can’t make it on HN I’m doomed. I’ve got the Spanish speaking software engineer joke market locked up!
- tomcam 3y ago[flagged]
- junon 3y agoThis actually looks incredible. Maybe this will be the turning point for Intel.
- newqer 3y agoHopefully the competition stays healthy and keep challenging each other for the top position. Intel proved already that being on the top spot for to long they became lazy.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- ggm 3y agoWould it be the case that a lower grade or even waste silicon blanks can be used to do the power component? Can a lower level of 'scale' be used, to achieve the power lines, and so more assured/fault-tolerant production? If it has to lock-step the generational burdens of masking and technology, and is unable to capitalise otherwise unused silicon, it doubles costs in those inputs. Not that it doesn't mean it can't deliver both improved power budget and better signals (less interference) but it might even be capable of becoming a lower cost option, if the bonding/positioning/lapping processes aren't too expensive, and its input costs and consequences for wiring plane costs are better than the alternatives to boot!
- exmadscientist 3y agoWafers are cheap. Bonding is not. And grinding is expensive. (Just ask Harris and Burr-Brown, who introduced this step ages ago for their processes requiring dielectric isolation.) So if that's cheaper than a few EUV masks, that says a lot about EUV!
- vpribish 3y agothe silicon is not a critical cost here at all.
- social_ism 3y ago[dead]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- t2i34uo234234 3y agoI imagine the pioneers of this were the camera-sensor folks (mostly Sony?) doing BSI ?
- wtallis 3y agoBSI requires avoiding having wiring on both sides, so that there's a side where no wiring will interfere with incoming light. But it does at least share the idea of polishing down the die so the layer of bulk silicon under the transistors is very thin.
- noipv4 3y agoInteresting! I guess they might also return back to FIVR when the CPU voltage regulators were integrated into the chip silicon. (Haswell / Broadwell)
- azilodf 3y agoThe image is a bad photoshop? The left signal should not have been mirrored.
- dale_glass 3y agoI think this might be the end of cool die photos, now that all the cool stuff will be hidden in between two layers of wiring. Though I'd be curious to see what the power delivery layers look like after this change.
- atq2119 3y agoWhat, exactly, do you think one could see on the back of a flip chip? If anything, BPD means there are more layers that can be shown.
- grandinj 3y agoIt feels weird to me that they are not rather just laying down power layers first, then some copper, and then the logic layers. So just build a deeper stack of layers, rather than flipping and grinding. But probably there is a reason.