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I find that blaming imperialism on the imperial aggressor is a safe and practical approach.

Y_Y 3y ago
What about fair or correct? Algerians are just as good as the French and produce just as many corrupt and incompetent bastards and politicians. Dividing the world into "good guys" and "bad guys" is a pretty effective heuristic, sure, but you can do better.
- pastage 3y ago
  I just watched The battle of Algiers it has a take on it, way before all the other more recent good guy wars. Of course we can blame France, but smaller nations are not blameless, apartheid was supported by many good guys.
- akiselev 3y ago
  The world isn't "fair" or "correct" and it's bad guys all the way down. The French empire just tends to be one of the worst [1][2][3][4] with a sprinkle of modern state sponsored terrorism [5] for good measure. You can take solace that they're in good company in continental Europe, I guess? There are no saints here, but to act like France isn't completely responsible for it's empire building is obscene. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti_indemnity_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti_indemnity_controversy - crippled Haiti economically in revenge for independence for over a century. Still hasn't recovered. [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamileke_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamileke_War - fought against Cameroon's independence [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malagasy_Uprising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malagasy_Uprising - found against Madagascar's independence, massacring much of the managerial class that ran the country, crippling it [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Indochina_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Indochina_War - Bloody fight against independence all of their Asian colonies resulting in hundreds of thousands dead, leading to the rise of communism in Vietnam and the subsequent wars in Indochina. [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior - French intelligence agents bombed a Greenpeace boat in New Zealand in 1985
  - sofixa 3y ago
    > crippled Haiti economically in revenge for independence for over a century. Still hasn't recovered. It wasn't in revenge, it was purely economic cold blooded compensation. Haiti was unrecognised by the world (some like the US were afraid of their own slaves getting ideas, others didn't want to offend France), and France was willing to do that if compensated monetarily for the loss of property (including slaves). Had Haiti not taken the deal, it probably would have spent a few more decades fully isolated and unable to trade, which is unlikely to have improved their situation. > French intelligence agents bombed a Greenpeace boat in New Zealand in 1985 It's funny how crazy that sounds on the surface, but is totally true. With the benefit of hindsight personally I can say that Greenpeace have been a force for bad more than good (their, and many others like them, short sighted and frankly stupid anti-nuclear stance has set humanity many decades back in the carbon reduction game, and we're all paying for it; what's even more annoying is that they never changed their stance, even when it meant increasing coal or gas usage, and related very problematic dependencies on Russia), so while they didn't deserve getting their ship bombed, they don't deserve to be underlined as some sort of holy thing that nobody could ever imagine someone doing bad things to. > Bloody fight against independence all of their Asian colonies resulting in hundreds of thousands dead, leading to the rise of communism in Vietnam and the subsequent wars in Indochina. Communism was already on the rise against the Japanese, can't attribute that mostly to the French. But yep, they made the situation worse and set the stage for the American intervention which made everything even worse.
godelski 3y ago
While the imperial aggressor plays a big role, we have to also recognize that their power requires them to have strong allies within the controlled area. This is an important factor because these people are local and you have more ability hold them accountable than peoples much further away (and likely from a stronger military power). It is also important because once independence is obtained, you need to ask if these same people are the ones who captured the power of the country. If so, is it all that different? (depends) People aren't trying to shift blame from the imperial aggressor so much as recognizing that imperial aggressors aren't exclusively foreign entities.
cm2187 3y ago
A quasi-automatic approach in many circles, I would say. All the troubles of the world are the fault of the west, because, you know, the rest of the world is somehow incapable of agency...
- s5300 3y ago
  [dead]
- oarsinsync 3y ago
  Abusers abuse. Abused suffer PTSD. They don’t lack agency, but continue to suffer the effects of abuse long after the abuser has gone. On individual scales, this can last years, or lifetimes. On nation scales, decades pushing on centuries doesn’t seem unfair.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - cm2187 3y ago
    France got invaded 3 times in the last century and a half. They still own the economic decline post 1970s. The rest is just excuses.
    - akiselev 3y ago
      The difference is that the Allies helped France rebuild instead of making it pay indemnity [1] for the actions of the Vichy regime. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti_indemnity_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti_indemnity_controversy
      - dudul 3y ago
        The Vichy regime wasn't the French government, it was the puppet for an occupying country. Allies helped everybody rebuild, including Germany.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Y_Y 3y ago

What about fair or correct? Algerians are just as good as the French and produce just as many corrupt and incompetent bastards and politicians. Dividing the world into "good guys" and "bad guys" is a pretty effective heuristic, sure, but you can do better.

pastage 3y ago
I just watched The battle of Algiers it has a take on it, way before all the other more recent good guy wars. Of course we can blame France, but smaller nations are not blameless, apartheid was supported by many good guys.
akiselev 3y ago
The world isn't "fair" or "correct" and it's bad guys all the way down. The French empire just tends to be one of the worst [1][2][3][4] with a sprinkle of modern state sponsored terrorism [5] for good measure. You can take solace that they're in good company in continental Europe, I guess? There are no saints here, but to act like France isn't completely responsible for it's empire building is obscene. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti_indemnity_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti_indemnity_controversy - crippled Haiti economically in revenge for independence for over a century. Still hasn't recovered. [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamileke_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamileke_War - fought against Cameroon's independence [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malagasy_Uprising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malagasy_Uprising - found against Madagascar's independence, massacring much of the managerial class that ran the country, crippling it [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Indochina_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Indochina_War - Bloody fight against independence all of their Asian colonies resulting in hundreds of thousands dead, leading to the rise of communism in Vietnam and the subsequent wars in Indochina. [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior - French intelligence agents bombed a Greenpeace boat in New Zealand in 1985
- sofixa 3y ago
  > crippled Haiti economically in revenge for independence for over a century. Still hasn't recovered. It wasn't in revenge, it was purely economic cold blooded compensation. Haiti was unrecognised by the world (some like the US were afraid of their own slaves getting ideas, others didn't want to offend France), and France was willing to do that if compensated monetarily for the loss of property (including slaves). Had Haiti not taken the deal, it probably would have spent a few more decades fully isolated and unable to trade, which is unlikely to have improved their situation. > French intelligence agents bombed a Greenpeace boat in New Zealand in 1985 It's funny how crazy that sounds on the surface, but is totally true. With the benefit of hindsight personally I can say that Greenpeace have been a force for bad more than good (their, and many others like them, short sighted and frankly stupid anti-nuclear stance has set humanity many decades back in the carbon reduction game, and we're all paying for it; what's even more annoying is that they never changed their stance, even when it meant increasing coal or gas usage, and related very problematic dependencies on Russia), so while they didn't deserve getting their ship bombed, they don't deserve to be underlined as some sort of holy thing that nobody could ever imagine someone doing bad things to. > Bloody fight against independence all of their Asian colonies resulting in hundreds of thousands dead, leading to the rise of communism in Vietnam and the subsequent wars in Indochina. Communism was already on the rise against the Japanese, can't attribute that mostly to the French. But yep, they made the situation worse and set the stage for the American intervention which made everything even worse.

godelski 3y ago

While the imperial aggressor plays a big role, we have to also recognize that their power requires them to have strong allies within the controlled area. This is an important factor because these people are local and you have more ability hold them accountable than peoples much further away (and likely from a stronger military power). It is also important because once independence is obtained, you need to ask if these same people are the ones who captured the power of the country. If so, is it all that different? (depends) People aren't trying to shift blame from the imperial aggressor so much as recognizing that imperial aggressors aren't exclusively foreign entities.

cm2187 3y ago

A quasi-automatic approach in many circles, I would say. All the troubles of the world are the fault of the west, because, you know, the rest of the world is somehow incapable of agency...

s5300 3y ago
[dead]
oarsinsync 3y ago
Abusers abuse. Abused suffer PTSD. They don’t lack agency, but continue to suffer the effects of abuse long after the abuser has gone. On individual scales, this can last years, or lifetimes. On nation scales, decades pushing on centuries doesn’t seem unfair.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- cm2187 3y ago
  France got invaded 3 times in the last century and a half. They still own the economic decline post 1970s. The rest is just excuses.
  - akiselev 3y ago
    The difference is that the Allies helped France rebuild instead of making it pay indemnity [1] for the actions of the Vichy regime. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti_indemnity_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti_indemnity_controversy
    - dudul 3y ago
      The Vichy regime wasn't the French government, it was the puppet for an occupying country. Allies helped everybody rebuild, including Germany.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]