8 ms·

Well, there is a bias there. If you would ask the parents of the migrant kids you would get a statement that they lost 80% of their culture. A mixture is to be

by oaiey 3y ago

Well, there is a bias there. If you would ask the parents of the migrant kids you would get a statement that they lost 80% of their culture. A mixture is to be expected and is a necessity for human and society evolvement.

constantcrying 3y ago
This clearly is not "integration". There is a delusional fantasy, by all political sides, going on here that migrants will "integrate", like what actually did happen with sub 1% imkigratnt groups. Why would these groups, which locally easily are a third of the population, if not the majority, want to integrate? German "culture" is literally just doing 8-5 work. Of course they are going to assert their native cultures. >A mixture is to be expected and is a necessity for human and society evolvement. A mixture of what? Speaking German + fundamental Islam + LGBT rights + driving a BMW + putting Gyros into bread. Is that "integration"? Completely laughable to be honest. These migrants group are doing what all otuer groups would do, forming their own parallel society, with their own shops, their own spaces and asserting it in the face of integrationist pressure.
- tfourb 3y ago
  "Outer groups," "native culture," "fundamental islam + LGBTQ rights," "These migrants," … The 1930s called, they want their xenophobic language back!
  - constantcrying 3y ago
    What kind of nonsense response is that? Why do you think I am literally hitler because I use the most normal words imaginable and repeat what migrants will tell you about their experience. Maybe there is a large cultural gap here, but I grew up in a "worse" part of town with lots of migrants around. Maybe you should try to do the same before calling everyone a nazi because they dare to point out what these people say they want?
  - laserdancepony 3y ago
    And here someone won the Godwin award again. That was fast. Fascinating how your adversary is having a well mannered argument and you derail it to call him a nazi. Takes one to know one, I think.
    - tfourb 3y ago
      I said his use of language is reminiscent of the way language was used in the 1930s, I didn't call him a Nazi. For what it's worth, the Nazis certainly don't have a monopoly of using language in this kind of way (creating an "us" vs. "them" narrative), it is quite common with populists all throughout history and certainly not confined exclusively to one particular political spectrum. But every time someone tries to stylize two very complex groups into two simple opposing forces, it should really ring alarm bells.
- tfourb 3y ago
  You are using language that is designed to (artificially) create an us vs. them scenario. You are creating two groups, "Germans" on the one side, "migrants" on the other. These are rhetorical devices that have been used throughout history, but most prominently during Nazi rule, to create a social climate and justification for discrimination and ultimately violence targeted at minorities. In reality, there is neither something like "German culture," nor something that can be defined as "migrant culture". Migration and cross-influencing of languages and cultures is a fundamental feature of human history and every time someone gets out the tropes that you are using, what they are really saying is "I want society to work the way I prefer" instead of going through the trouble of trying to understand what is happening and participating in working out a solution to actual problems.
  - constantcrying 3y ago
    I think it is quite hilarious to see how utterly delusional people are about the subject of migration. Probably because they never had the experience of growing up in a place where a significant population were migrants and consequently having very little interactions with them or migrant classmates, friends, colleagues. Ask them how they feel about "us versus them". They will laugh at you if you tell them that they have no culture. They have a culture and they intend to protect it, of course. But at least you seem to agree that integration is a complete fantasy.
    - tfourb 3y ago
      The point is that you are creating an image of a society fundamentally split into "natives" and "migrants" – two distinct groups that in this telling are incompatible. I am sorry about the seemingly bad experiences you've had growing up, if I understand you correctly. But they have little to do with the other people in your environment being migrants or of migratory background. You'll find similar dynamics even in contexts where migration is not prevalent but other social problems exist. Your experience is certainly real and worth to be taken seriously, but it reflects an outlier and not a fundamental problem with society in Germany. The vast majority of interactions between "immigrants" and the rest of the population are positive and productive for everyone involved, especially when you take into account that the concept of a German society is not that old to begin with and virtually every family has some form of migratory history. "Migration" as the root cause of social problems does not make any sense because it always presumes that there is something "different" about people from other places. And as someone who has been to plenty of places that most people in Germany would describe as "different," I think that's just not true. People are mostly the same everywhere and want basically the same things. "Culture" in terms of personal and collective experience certainly matters a great deal to many people, but it only becomes exclusionary if people feel challenged by the context they are living in and their culture/religion/caste/whatever provides a convenient narrative to fall back on.

by oaiey 3y ago

constantcrying 3y ago

This clearly is not "integration". There is a delusional fantasy, by all political sides, going on here that migrants will "integrate", like what actually did happen with sub 1% imkigratnt groups. Why would these groups, which locally easily are a third of the population, if not the majority, want to integrate? German "culture" is literally just doing 8-5 work. Of course they are going to assert their native cultures. >A mixture is to be expected and is a necessity for human and society evolvement. A mixture of what? Speaking German + fundamental Islam + LGBT rights + driving a BMW + putting Gyros into bread. Is that "integration"? Completely laughable to be honest. These migrants group are doing what all otuer groups would do, forming their own parallel society, with their own shops, their own spaces and asserting it in the face of integrationist pressure.

tfourb 3y ago
"Outer groups," "native culture," "fundamental islam + LGBTQ rights," "These migrants," … The 1930s called, they want their xenophobic language back!
- constantcrying 3y ago
  What kind of nonsense response is that? Why do you think I am literally hitler because I use the most normal words imaginable and repeat what migrants will tell you about their experience. Maybe there is a large cultural gap here, but I grew up in a "worse" part of town with lots of migrants around. Maybe you should try to do the same before calling everyone a nazi because they dare to point out what these people say they want?
- laserdancepony 3y ago
  And here someone won the Godwin award again. That was fast. Fascinating how your adversary is having a well mannered argument and you derail it to call him a nazi. Takes one to know one, I think.
  - tfourb 3y ago
    I said his use of language is reminiscent of the way language was used in the 1930s, I didn't call him a Nazi. For what it's worth, the Nazis certainly don't have a monopoly of using language in this kind of way (creating an "us" vs. "them" narrative), it is quite common with populists all throughout history and certainly not confined exclusively to one particular political spectrum. But every time someone tries to stylize two very complex groups into two simple opposing forces, it should really ring alarm bells.
tfourb 3y ago
You are using language that is designed to (artificially) create an us vs. them scenario. You are creating two groups, "Germans" on the one side, "migrants" on the other. These are rhetorical devices that have been used throughout history, but most prominently during Nazi rule, to create a social climate and justification for discrimination and ultimately violence targeted at minorities. In reality, there is neither something like "German culture," nor something that can be defined as "migrant culture". Migration and cross-influencing of languages and cultures is a fundamental feature of human history and every time someone gets out the tropes that you are using, what they are really saying is "I want society to work the way I prefer" instead of going through the trouble of trying to understand what is happening and participating in working out a solution to actual problems.
- constantcrying 3y ago
  I think it is quite hilarious to see how utterly delusional people are about the subject of migration. Probably because they never had the experience of growing up in a place where a significant population were migrants and consequently having very little interactions with them or migrant classmates, friends, colleagues. Ask them how they feel about "us versus them". They will laugh at you if you tell them that they have no culture. They have a culture and they intend to protect it, of course. But at least you seem to agree that integration is a complete fantasy.
  - tfourb 3y ago
    The point is that you are creating an image of a society fundamentally split into "natives" and "migrants" – two distinct groups that in this telling are incompatible. I am sorry about the seemingly bad experiences you've had growing up, if I understand you correctly. But they have little to do with the other people in your environment being migrants or of migratory background. You'll find similar dynamics even in contexts where migration is not prevalent but other social problems exist. Your experience is certainly real and worth to be taken seriously, but it reflects an outlier and not a fundamental problem with society in Germany. The vast majority of interactions between "immigrants" and the rest of the population are positive and productive for everyone involved, especially when you take into account that the concept of a German society is not that old to begin with and virtually every family has some form of migratory history. "Migration" as the root cause of social problems does not make any sense because it always presumes that there is something "different" about people from other places. And as someone who has been to plenty of places that most people in Germany would describe as "different," I think that's just not true. People are mostly the same everywhere and want basically the same things. "Culture" in terms of personal and collective experience certainly matters a great deal to many people, but it only becomes exclusionary if people feel challenged by the context they are living in and their culture/religion/caste/whatever provides a convenient narrative to fall back on.