4 ms·

in the context of the area it does make sense. the Poor are majority in the outer boroughs and uptown manhattan with the only poor community I can think of near

in the context of the area it does make sense. the Poor are majority in the outer boroughs and uptown manhattan with the only poor community I can think of near the area is in Chinatown and you would have to question: What is someone from chinatown doing with a car in FIDI? they’re not going to brooklyn since they would’ve taken the Williamsburg bridge or even the Queens Midtown tunnel. No way they’re looking to just chill at Battery Park or the seaport since the 6 train is right there. Someone from the Bronx or Harlem could drive there for work but both places have public transportation options that makes driving not make much sense and neither places require going through downtown in order to access south brooklyn.

ironmagma 3y ago
You seem to be making the argument there is no one like this. But if there is no one like this, what good will banning it do? I think we all know people find it, for one reason or another, more appropriate to take a car despite the already large cost of doing so in Manhattan. People aren’t just behaving completely illogically. If someone is driving, it’s not because they just didn’t even consider taking public transit.
- Wowfunhappy 3y ago
  > If someone is driving, it’s not because they just didn’t even consider taking public transit. And in the process, they are polluting the air, making busses run more slowly, and (on average across the population) killing pedestrians. On an individual level, this person may indeed have concluded that driving is better for them than taking public transit. For society at large, however, public transit is almost always the better choice. By making driving in Manhattan more painful for individuals, we bring it in line with the real cost for society.
  - ironmagma 3y ago
    Without ceremony, you have changed arguments. Originally you were saying those people simply don’t exist. As many a police investigator has noted, changing one’s stories is the surest sign of dishonesty. But even if we ignore this, by induced demand, open streets will simply invite more traffic. The difference is the wealth distribution of the present traffic.
    - Wowfunhappy 3y ago
      > Originally you were saying those people simply don’t exist. Sorry, when I said "if you're poor, you probably aren't driving in Manhattan in the first place," I didn't mean to imply that zero low-income people drive private vehicles there. However, I do believe that the population of drivers in Manhattan is overwhelmingly higher income. Separately, I believe that the vast majority of private vehicles should be banned in Manhattan anyway (which is what I meant by "if you are driving in Manhattan, you should probably stop doing that). If I was God Emperor of New York, I would close 4/5 streets in Manhattan to vehicles, and restrict the remaining streets to commercial trucks, busses, taxis, ambulances, and individuals who can park in handicapped parking spots. This would ensure that those who actually do need to drive can do so efficiently. If congestion pricing gets us partway there, that's a huge win in my eyes. > But even if we ignore this, by induced demand, open streets will simply invite more traffic. Great, then NYC can raise the price. They should keep raising the price until the roads are clear. Then they should give that money to the MTA to improve public transit, and further tip the scales against driving.
      - ironmagma 3y ago
        Doing that you’ll get a couple billionaires per hour. Why not just ban driving in the city altogether? (This isn’t just a rhetorical question, really, why not just do that instead of this BS?) Ironically I think everyone knows the answer which is that this isn’t about congestion. This is about lining pockets as much as possible.

ironmagma 3y ago

You seem to be making the argument there is no one like this. But if there is no one like this, what good will banning it do? I think we all know people find it, for one reason or another, more appropriate to take a car despite the already large cost of doing so in Manhattan. People aren’t just behaving completely illogically. If someone is driving, it’s not because they just didn’t even consider taking public transit.

Wowfunhappy 3y ago
> If someone is driving, it’s not because they just didn’t even consider taking public transit. And in the process, they are polluting the air, making busses run more slowly, and (on average across the population) killing pedestrians. On an individual level, this person may indeed have concluded that driving is better for them than taking public transit. For society at large, however, public transit is almost always the better choice. By making driving in Manhattan more painful for individuals, we bring it in line with the real cost for society.
- ironmagma 3y ago
  Without ceremony, you have changed arguments. Originally you were saying those people simply don’t exist. As many a police investigator has noted, changing one’s stories is the surest sign of dishonesty. But even if we ignore this, by induced demand, open streets will simply invite more traffic. The difference is the wealth distribution of the present traffic.
  - Wowfunhappy 3y ago
    > Originally you were saying those people simply don’t exist. Sorry, when I said "if you're poor, you probably aren't driving in Manhattan in the first place," I didn't mean to imply that zero low-income people drive private vehicles there. However, I do believe that the population of drivers in Manhattan is overwhelmingly higher income. Separately, I believe that the vast majority of private vehicles should be banned in Manhattan anyway (which is what I meant by "if you are driving in Manhattan, you should probably stop doing that). If I was God Emperor of New York, I would close 4/5 streets in Manhattan to vehicles, and restrict the remaining streets to commercial trucks, busses, taxis, ambulances, and individuals who can park in handicapped parking spots. This would ensure that those who actually do need to drive can do so efficiently. If congestion pricing gets us partway there, that's a huge win in my eyes. > But even if we ignore this, by induced demand, open streets will simply invite more traffic. Great, then NYC can raise the price. They should keep raising the price until the roads are clear. Then they should give that money to the MTA to improve public transit, and further tip the scales against driving.
    - ironmagma 3y ago
      Doing that you’ll get a couple billionaires per hour. Why not just ban driving in the city altogether? (This isn’t just a rhetorical question, really, why not just do that instead of this BS?) Ironically I think everyone knows the answer which is that this isn’t about congestion. This is about lining pockets as much as possible.