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> if most cultures and nations have committed heinous acts in their past, one should assume they are still doing terrible things to this day. Yeah, here's a li

> if most cultures and nations have committed heinous acts in their past, one should assume they are still doing terrible things to this day. Yeah, here's a list, plenty still ongoing: https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/us_atrocities.md https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/us_atrociti...

xtracto 3y ago
This is a great text. Most internet English language forums have a heavy American culture bias. So it's not easy to find places to talk in a calm and unbiased manner about US imperialism. In a couple 100s of years , history will be talked about this era of "Pax Americana" and the lengths that the US Gov went trying to cling to its power. Is it good, is it bad? Depends on where you are really.
- NLPaep 3y ago
  Having such a list on two American sites is noteworthy. On pikabu.ru, there is no war going on. Mass censorship.
  - xtracto 3y ago
    And on NK there's no internet at all. So what? Why this fixation in changing the focus out of the US with whataboutism? Others' worse actions dont make ones bad actions better.
    - JohnBooty 3y ago
      I understand how it could be seen as whataboutism, but think it's extremely relevant in a discussion about American imperialism. If nothing else, it's certainly interesting and unique. America is the first (and maybe only, ever?) major imperial power that allows such open discussion of its atrocities. I say this not from the standpoint of defending or attacking America. I just find it fascinating.
      - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
        > America is the first (and maybe only, ever?) major imperial power Swift's "A Modest Proposal" was from 1729.
        JohnBooty 3y ago
        I'll attempt to clarify. America is the first (and maybe only, ever?) major imperial power that allows such open discussion of its atrocities. I did not claim that America was the first imperial power to allow public dissent. That, as I'm sure you'd agree, is manifestly untrue. So it's unclear to me what point you're attempting to make by pointing out a single instance of prior public dissent in the British Empire. Particularly since Swift's work of satire was not exactly a direct criticism of the British Empire, nor a catalogue of its atrocities. If you do the minimum feasible amount of research and read the Wikipedia article, you will learn that it was largely a parody of other such popular contemporary treatises, a thing that is easy to miss in 2023 if you aren't familiar with the context in which "A Modest Proposal" was written. Back to my original post... I certainly don't think America was the first to allow such dissent. I think it is the first to do so on such a scale. (I also don't necessarily think America allows such dissent for entirely noble purposes. As has been often pointed out, legitimate criticism and evidence often gets lumped in with whackadoo fake conspiracy theories and is therefore discredited by default in the public's mind. The end result is a more effective form of suppression than could be achieved by direct totalitarian repression. The US government will let you talk about the MKUltra experiments or Guantanamo all day long because barely anybody will believe you, or care.)
        anonymouskimmer 3y ago
        The scale is an artifact of the ease of publication today. I agree that the speech allowed today is greater than ever before. Your point stands. The US First Amendment is indeed unique, but it came from a tradition[1][2]. And it's not so long ago that US citizens were prosecuted for sedition. And this is not totally unique to the US or Britain[3][4]. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato%27s_Letters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato%27s_Letters [2] - https://avalon.law.yale.edu/17th_century/england.asp https://avalon.law.yale.edu/17th_century/england.asp > That it is the right of the subjects to petition the king, and all commitments and prosecutions for such petitioning are illegal; > That the freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament; [3] - https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/critics-of-empire-9780857711779/ https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/critics-of-empire-978085771177... [4] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congo_Reform_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congo_Reform_Association > In the mid-1890s Edmund Dene Morel was working for Elder Dempster as a shipping clerk based in Antwerp, when he noticed discrepancies between public and private accounts given for the import and export figures relating to shipping from the Congo.[5] Morel deduced from the steady export of firearms and cartridge, against the disproportionate mass imports in rubber, ivory and other lucrative commodities, that no commercial transaction was taking place.[6] He concluded that the use of force was the only explanation: the consistency of the exchange could only be supported by a state-led system of mass exploitation.[7] Resigning from his role in 1901, Morel turned to journalism to investigate and raise awareness about the activities of the Congo Free State authorities, establishing his own journal in early 1903 – the West African Mail.[8]
    - opportune 3y ago
      It’s not really whataboutism to say “I like the US empire better than other wanna-be empires because not a single wanna-be empire allows you to meaningfully criticize it” The US did bad things to its own people like bikini atoll and MkUltra and the Tuskegee Experiments. Maybe it even did things like stage 9/11 as a false flag (there were real plans to stage a similar false flag in the 70s to support a war against Cuba) - even if it did, I’m allowed to speculate about it or even claim it to be true online. In China try to mention Tiananmen Square. Even if the US empire is evil, which I think is a bit overly harsh at the general level while agreeing that many of its individual actions have been evil, it’s better than any of the other empires.
- sh34r 3y ago
  I think it'll be a lot shorter than 100 years. It didn't take 100 years for the British empire to collapse. It showed its weakness during WWII, and the Suez crisis put the old dog out of its misery a mere 10 years later. Chernobyl preceded the fall of the USSR by only 5 years. How long after COVID will America fall? China's already brokered peace in the Middle East between our best friend and our worst enemy in the region. The Universe has a sense of humor. Given the historical precedent, will we mark the end of the US empire with China negotiating peace in occupied Ukraine or in occupied Palestine? I'm clearly the furthest thing from a patriot, but I am fairly certain the history books will place our collapse somewhere between the Soviet Union and the British Empire on the atrocity scale. If we outdo Churchill's genocide in India, it's going to involve nuclear hellfire, and then there won't be any history books to remember it by anyway.
bsnnkv 3y ago
Your post is showing as downvoted for me right now. I tried upvoting it so it doesn't show as greyed out. Thanks for sharing this resource; I had not come across it before and I think it is a valuable resource to share and a meaningful contribution to the discussion on this topic.
civilitty 3y ago
I jumped to the section on Europe and the only entry for the last 20 years is: > In late 2019, CIA agent Anne Sacoolas hit and killed a British teenage pedestrian named Harry Dunn with her car, while she was driving on the wrong side of the road, near the RAF Croughton base in the UK where she and her husband (both CIA agents) worked. List of atrocities, indeed…
fwungy 3y ago
Thank God the good guys won all the wars. -Norm McDonald

xtracto 3y ago

This is a great text. Most internet English language forums have a heavy American culture bias. So it's not easy to find places to talk in a calm and unbiased manner about US imperialism. In a couple 100s of years , history will be talked about this era of "Pax Americana" and the lengths that the US Gov went trying to cling to its power. Is it good, is it bad? Depends on where you are really.

NLPaep 3y ago
Having such a list on two American sites is noteworthy. On pikabu.ru, there is no war going on. Mass censorship.
- xtracto 3y ago
  And on NK there's no internet at all. So what? Why this fixation in changing the focus out of the US with whataboutism? Others' worse actions dont make ones bad actions better.
  - JohnBooty 3y ago
    I understand how it could be seen as whataboutism, but think it's extremely relevant in a discussion about American imperialism. If nothing else, it's certainly interesting and unique. America is the first (and maybe only, ever?) major imperial power that allows such open discussion of its atrocities. I say this not from the standpoint of defending or attacking America. I just find it fascinating.
    - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
      > America is the first (and maybe only, ever?) major imperial power Swift's "A Modest Proposal" was from 1729.
      - JohnBooty 3y ago
        I'll attempt to clarify. America is the first (and maybe only, ever?) major imperial power that allows such open discussion of its atrocities. I did not claim that America was the first imperial power to allow public dissent. That, as I'm sure you'd agree, is manifestly untrue. So it's unclear to me what point you're attempting to make by pointing out a single instance of prior public dissent in the British Empire. Particularly since Swift's work of satire was not exactly a direct criticism of the British Empire, nor a catalogue of its atrocities. If you do the minimum feasible amount of research and read the Wikipedia article, you will learn that it was largely a parody of other such popular contemporary treatises, a thing that is easy to miss in 2023 if you aren't familiar with the context in which "A Modest Proposal" was written. Back to my original post... I certainly don't think America was the first to allow such dissent. I think it is the first to do so on such a scale. (I also don't necessarily think America allows such dissent for entirely noble purposes. As has been often pointed out, legitimate criticism and evidence often gets lumped in with whackadoo fake conspiracy theories and is therefore discredited by default in the public's mind. The end result is a more effective form of suppression than could be achieved by direct totalitarian repression. The US government will let you talk about the MKUltra experiments or Guantanamo all day long because barely anybody will believe you, or care.)
        anonymouskimmer 3y ago
        The scale is an artifact of the ease of publication today. I agree that the speech allowed today is greater than ever before. Your point stands. The US First Amendment is indeed unique, but it came from a tradition[1][2]. And it's not so long ago that US citizens were prosecuted for sedition. And this is not totally unique to the US or Britain[3][4]. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato%27s_Letters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato%27s_Letters [2] - https://avalon.law.yale.edu/17th_century/england.asp https://avalon.law.yale.edu/17th_century/england.asp > That it is the right of the subjects to petition the king, and all commitments and prosecutions for such petitioning are illegal; > That the freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament; [3] - https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/critics-of-empire-9780857711779/ https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/critics-of-empire-978085771177... [4] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congo_Reform_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congo_Reform_Association > In the mid-1890s Edmund Dene Morel was working for Elder Dempster as a shipping clerk based in Antwerp, when he noticed discrepancies between public and private accounts given for the import and export figures relating to shipping from the Congo.[5] Morel deduced from the steady export of firearms and cartridge, against the disproportionate mass imports in rubber, ivory and other lucrative commodities, that no commercial transaction was taking place.[6] He concluded that the use of force was the only explanation: the consistency of the exchange could only be supported by a state-led system of mass exploitation.[7] Resigning from his role in 1901, Morel turned to journalism to investigate and raise awareness about the activities of the Congo Free State authorities, establishing his own journal in early 1903 – the West African Mail.[8]
  - opportune 3y ago
    It’s not really whataboutism to say “I like the US empire better than other wanna-be empires because not a single wanna-be empire allows you to meaningfully criticize it” The US did bad things to its own people like bikini atoll and MkUltra and the Tuskegee Experiments. Maybe it even did things like stage 9/11 as a false flag (there were real plans to stage a similar false flag in the 70s to support a war against Cuba) - even if it did, I’m allowed to speculate about it or even claim it to be true online. In China try to mention Tiananmen Square. Even if the US empire is evil, which I think is a bit overly harsh at the general level while agreeing that many of its individual actions have been evil, it’s better than any of the other empires.
sh34r 3y ago
I think it'll be a lot shorter than 100 years. It didn't take 100 years for the British empire to collapse. It showed its weakness during WWII, and the Suez crisis put the old dog out of its misery a mere 10 years later. Chernobyl preceded the fall of the USSR by only 5 years. How long after COVID will America fall? China's already brokered peace in the Middle East between our best friend and our worst enemy in the region. The Universe has a sense of humor. Given the historical precedent, will we mark the end of the US empire with China negotiating peace in occupied Ukraine or in occupied Palestine? I'm clearly the furthest thing from a patriot, but I am fairly certain the history books will place our collapse somewhere between the Soviet Union and the British Empire on the atrocity scale. If we outdo Churchill's genocide in India, it's going to involve nuclear hellfire, and then there won't be any history books to remember it by anyway.

bsnnkv 3y ago

Your post is showing as downvoted for me right now. I tried upvoting it so it doesn't show as greyed out. Thanks for sharing this resource; I had not come across it before and I think it is a valuable resource to share and a meaningful contribution to the discussion on this topic.

civilitty 3y ago

I jumped to the section on Europe and the only entry for the last 20 years is: > In late 2019, CIA agent Anne Sacoolas hit and killed a British teenage pedestrian named Harry Dunn with her car, while she was driving on the wrong side of the road, near the RAF Croughton base in the UK where she and her husband (both CIA agents) worked. List of atrocities, indeed…

fwungy 3y ago

Thank God the good guys won all the wars. -Norm McDonald