4 ms·

There also needs to be a cultural shift in Germany regarding how non-native German speakers are treated. If you're not absolutely fluent, you are fucked. Livi

There also needs to be a cultural shift in Germany regarding how non-native German speakers are treated. If you're not absolutely fluent, you are fucked. Living in Germany as a non-native is being stuck between two worlds. Germans only speak English to you, whilst insisting that you absolutely must learn German, and rejecting completely you if you're not fluent. So in the end, you cannot really win.

throwaway290 3y ago
How does that rejection manifest itself?
- twixfel 3y ago
  Insisting on speaking English with you, thus slowing your integration. Actively avoiding you if you're an Ausländer. Segregation along racial/linguistic lines in the workplace or other settings (my workplace has three groups: Germans, Slavs (I am an honorary Slav it seems) and Chinese). Speaking either fluent, mumbled German or not at all or just English—no attempt on their part to accommodate your imperfect German by speaking more slowly/clearly/simply. IMO that is what it's like to live in Germany. I don't expect people to bend over backwards for me. But on the one hand, Germans absolutely insist on immigrants learning German, but on the other hand, even when you are learning German, they don't really change their behaviour at all, so actually learning German is far less helpful than you might think.
  - throwaway290 3y ago
    > Insisting on speaking English with you, thus slowing your integration. I encountered the same with another language. I think this is just the matter of practicality and efficiency, no one is out to impede me in some way. It's on me to learn the language and I shouldn't expect people to go an extra mile and babysit me. I don't deserve special attitude if I'm doing the thing that's anyway normal and expected. Also, I don't say it's not difficult in your situation (though I envy you, wouldn't mind moving to Germany myself) but I suspect a lot of this can be projection. You feel like you are separated and people don't want to hang out with you because of the language and you behave accordingly, you hang out with a group of fellow immigrants, etc and this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Especially if you are sensitive to rejection. You give more weight to every sign that a person may be predisposed against (even if it's their bad mood not you) and discount signs where a person is friendly. But that said can also be bad luck with social circles. I have met people from different countries who are quick to profile and look down on foreigners and people from the same country who are open and nice.
    - twixfel 3y ago
      It may be the case, but you don't know me, and by your own admission have never lived in Germany, so you cannot possibly reasonably ply your cod psychoanalysis on me. I can only speak of my own experiences and describe to you what it is like. It's up to you if you want to simply discard everything I say, blame everything on me and completely absolve German society or not. That would be a very German thing to do, after all ;) I could talk at further length about it, but I guess I am not predisposed to do so, because it's clear you've already made your mind up, and it's not so enjoyable to discuss German society with someone who has no idea about German society and yet clearly has very strong opinions on it!
      - throwaway290 3y ago
        I don't know you but I know me and many things you describe were a frustration at first until I tried to empathize with people around. Also I don't blame everything on you, just pointing out you have agency, can change your social circles and find friendlier people, and feeling entitled is not always the best strategy ;)
        twixfel 3y ago
        I think the difficulty here is that I would like to talk to you about German society and try to engage with you and have a discussion, but you don't know anything abut German society, so it's somewhat pointless for me to do so. And in the end anything I say you will likely respond with "yeah that's all in your head and you're projecting", which is ultimately groundless (even if it's true! because you've never lived in Germany and you don't know me) and extremely patronising. So in the end the discussion would be a waste of time. All I will say is that I appreciate that I have agency and despite the difficulties I have outlined above, I continue to learn the language, and I continue to go out and engage with people of all sorts, and to generally live my life. So whatever picture you painted of me in your head, I think somehow it's not really grounded in reality. On the issue of my supposed "entitlement", I only hope to be treated in the way I treat people myself. I am not looking for special treatment, only treatment with some degree of the empathy you say is so important for me to have!
  - c00lio 3y ago
    > Insisting on speaking English with you, thus slowing your integration. Insist back. Repeatedly. Germans (usually) don't do this out of malice, they do this out of (in this case, misunderstood and shortsighted) kindness and friendlyness. They try to be welcoming and make it easy for a foreigner by speaking English, thus removing the language barrier. To them, speaking English is improving your integration, at least in the short term, because you can communicate easily and efficiently right now. If you just ask once to speak German, you will be ignored since it is assumed that you are just doing this out of politeness. It is, to Germans, perfectly acceptable if you then insist on speaking German nonetheless and point out that you are not requesting German out of politeness but a desire to learn. But the default mode for a German will always me to speak English to foreigners, never German. Speaking slowly and simply has a similar connotation of impoliteness. If you speak slow and simplified German to a foreigner you are (in a German's mind) pointing out their flawed grasp of the language, thus offending the foreigner. Better to "compliment" the foreigner by speaking "normally", thus pointing out the foreigner's competence...
    - throwaway290 3y ago
      You may not need to "insist" insist either, ie., no need to explicitly ask or make it a problem if German colleague speaks English :) Conversation is a two-way street and you both have agency. They reply in English... you just hit them right back with German! (maybe with a question to clarify if they got it, in case your accent is really strong)
  - _Microft 3y ago
    Have you tried finding other ways to practice your German than at the workplace? Your local library or the university (if your town has one) might have pinboards for finding a language partner, i.e. someone you meet with and practice your and their language skills together. That might be a more relaxed environment for practicing than the workplace. For listening comprehension, there should be lots of resources online (for news I would recommend the "Tagesschau"). All the best!
    - twixfel 3y ago
      Yes I have tried, my experience in general is that the tandem partners are really quite flakey and difficult to keep going. I agree I should watch more TV and listen to more radio. But I don't even do these in my mother tongue, so there is twice the impediment.
      - _Microft 3y ago
        I never managed to find a good tandem partner either. Maybe there is some Internet content you might like btw? The Youtube channel "KurzgesagtDE" has over a hundred videos covering a wide variety of topics in a more modern style if that might be more appealing?

throwaway290 3y ago

How does that rejection manifest itself?

twixfel 3y ago
Insisting on speaking English with you, thus slowing your integration. Actively avoiding you if you're an Ausländer. Segregation along racial/linguistic lines in the workplace or other settings (my workplace has three groups: Germans, Slavs (I am an honorary Slav it seems) and Chinese). Speaking either fluent, mumbled German or not at all or just English—no attempt on their part to accommodate your imperfect German by speaking more slowly/clearly/simply. IMO that is what it's like to live in Germany. I don't expect people to bend over backwards for me. But on the one hand, Germans absolutely insist on immigrants learning German, but on the other hand, even when you are learning German, they don't really change their behaviour at all, so actually learning German is far less helpful than you might think.
- throwaway290 3y ago
  > Insisting on speaking English with you, thus slowing your integration. I encountered the same with another language. I think this is just the matter of practicality and efficiency, no one is out to impede me in some way. It's on me to learn the language and I shouldn't expect people to go an extra mile and babysit me. I don't deserve special attitude if I'm doing the thing that's anyway normal and expected. Also, I don't say it's not difficult in your situation (though I envy you, wouldn't mind moving to Germany myself) but I suspect a lot of this can be projection. You feel like you are separated and people don't want to hang out with you because of the language and you behave accordingly, you hang out with a group of fellow immigrants, etc and this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Especially if you are sensitive to rejection. You give more weight to every sign that a person may be predisposed against (even if it's their bad mood not you) and discount signs where a person is friendly. But that said can also be bad luck with social circles. I have met people from different countries who are quick to profile and look down on foreigners and people from the same country who are open and nice.
  - twixfel 3y ago
    It may be the case, but you don't know me, and by your own admission have never lived in Germany, so you cannot possibly reasonably ply your cod psychoanalysis on me. I can only speak of my own experiences and describe to you what it is like. It's up to you if you want to simply discard everything I say, blame everything on me and completely absolve German society or not. That would be a very German thing to do, after all ;) I could talk at further length about it, but I guess I am not predisposed to do so, because it's clear you've already made your mind up, and it's not so enjoyable to discuss German society with someone who has no idea about German society and yet clearly has very strong opinions on it!
    - throwaway290 3y ago
      I don't know you but I know me and many things you describe were a frustration at first until I tried to empathize with people around. Also I don't blame everything on you, just pointing out you have agency, can change your social circles and find friendlier people, and feeling entitled is not always the best strategy ;)
      - twixfel 3y ago
        I think the difficulty here is that I would like to talk to you about German society and try to engage with you and have a discussion, but you don't know anything abut German society, so it's somewhat pointless for me to do so. And in the end anything I say you will likely respond with "yeah that's all in your head and you're projecting", which is ultimately groundless (even if it's true! because you've never lived in Germany and you don't know me) and extremely patronising. So in the end the discussion would be a waste of time. All I will say is that I appreciate that I have agency and despite the difficulties I have outlined above, I continue to learn the language, and I continue to go out and engage with people of all sorts, and to generally live my life. So whatever picture you painted of me in your head, I think somehow it's not really grounded in reality. On the issue of my supposed "entitlement", I only hope to be treated in the way I treat people myself. I am not looking for special treatment, only treatment with some degree of the empathy you say is so important for me to have!
- c00lio 3y ago
  > Insisting on speaking English with you, thus slowing your integration. Insist back. Repeatedly. Germans (usually) don't do this out of malice, they do this out of (in this case, misunderstood and shortsighted) kindness and friendlyness. They try to be welcoming and make it easy for a foreigner by speaking English, thus removing the language barrier. To them, speaking English is improving your integration, at least in the short term, because you can communicate easily and efficiently right now. If you just ask once to speak German, you will be ignored since it is assumed that you are just doing this out of politeness. It is, to Germans, perfectly acceptable if you then insist on speaking German nonetheless and point out that you are not requesting German out of politeness but a desire to learn. But the default mode for a German will always me to speak English to foreigners, never German. Speaking slowly and simply has a similar connotation of impoliteness. If you speak slow and simplified German to a foreigner you are (in a German's mind) pointing out their flawed grasp of the language, thus offending the foreigner. Better to "compliment" the foreigner by speaking "normally", thus pointing out the foreigner's competence...
  - throwaway290 3y ago
    You may not need to "insist" insist either, ie., no need to explicitly ask or make it a problem if German colleague speaks English :) Conversation is a two-way street and you both have agency. They reply in English... you just hit them right back with German! (maybe with a question to clarify if they got it, in case your accent is really strong)
- _Microft 3y ago
  Have you tried finding other ways to practice your German than at the workplace? Your local library or the university (if your town has one) might have pinboards for finding a language partner, i.e. someone you meet with and practice your and their language skills together. That might be a more relaxed environment for practicing than the workplace. For listening comprehension, there should be lots of resources online (for news I would recommend the "Tagesschau"). All the best!
  - twixfel 3y ago
    Yes I have tried, my experience in general is that the tandem partners are really quite flakey and difficult to keep going. I agree I should watch more TV and listen to more radio. But I don't even do these in my mother tongue, so there is twice the impediment.
    - _Microft 3y ago
      I never managed to find a good tandem partner either. Maybe there is some Internet content you might like btw? The Youtube channel "KurzgesagtDE" has over a hundred videos covering a wide variety of topics in a more modern style if that might be more appealing?