3 ms·

The "brighter" distinction isn't relevant in this case, yes. It just comes up in the overall discussion about whether to have a 3-, 2- or 1-branch school system

by c00lio 3y ago

The "brighter" distinction isn't relevant in this case, yes. It just comes up in the overall discussion about whether to have a 3-, 2- or 1-branch school system, that is whether to have different branches of schools after primary school that cater to more-brainy-less-handy or more-handy-less-brainy types. And I don't think money is an issue. The problem with lots of immigrant children is mostly one found in cities, where there is typically more than one "second grade" per school. So you could easily, with the exact same amount of teachers, give English lessons to classes 2a, 2b, 2c, 2d and German lessons to 2e and 2f.

tfourb 3y ago
Just to share some insights from our local rural primary school (where I am the head of the parent's association and have regular conversations with the school principal about personnel) and from a primary school in Berlin Kreutzberg (where my sister is a teacher): Schools get a number of "teaching hours" allotted based on the number of children attending that school (some children might be classed as requiring more hours, i.e. those with certified special learning requirements). It is universally accepted (except by the politicians setting those hours) that these are insufficient to actually provide the supervision and support to have the learning outcomes that are desirable and demanded by government/parents. They also do not cover additional (but foreseeable) requirements due to illness, etc. No school actually has all of these teaching hours covered because there are simply not enough teachers to go around. Even if, by some miracle, 100% of hours are covered at the beginning of the year, every teacher that leaves during the year due to illness, pregnancy, etc. is pushing down coverage. Because of the lack of actual teachers, the hours are also increasingly covered by people transferring from other professions. These are counted as full teaching staff, but are obviously not as qualified as actual teachers. Teachers are also expected to do a lot of stuff that is not teaching, i.e. school administration, social work, counseling, etc. My personal guess is that in most schools, you would actually need about 130% of the teaching hours currently allotted to provide a quality education for all pupils, while schools in special situations (i.e. large migrant populations) would need probably more like 150-200%. In reality, the typical school probably has only 80-90% of allotted hours available (some of which are covered by non-teachers) with schools in special situations often having even less, because they are typically situated in places with more budgetary constraints/not a desirable workplace.
- tfourb 3y ago
  Maybe also interesting/important in this context: Schools have only very limited ways to do their own hiring. Teachers are usually allocated by state government administrations. This tends to be a bureaucratic and drawn-out process. Normal teaching positions usually require a few months to fill under ideal conditions, positions for principals/vice principals can take more than a year, even if a candidate is available. Our primary school has been without a principal for a year now and while the vice-principal has been confirmed to take over the position, it will take a few months more to make that official. And only then the position of vice-principal will be recruited. Most likely, the school will be without a full administrative team for two years or more when all is said and done.
  - G3rn0ti 3y ago
    > Teachers are usually allocated by state government administrations. This. Biggest issue in all variants of Germany’s education system. Schools should have their own budget which they can allocate as they wish and be allowed to freely raise additional budget from private of public sources for their projects. They should also have a say in the salary of the teachers they employ. In Germany, historically, all teachers are civil servants that can’t be fired and, hence, aren’t really held responsible for the outcome of their teachings. Especially in troublesome areas schools are left with often incompetent and lazy personnel make the situation for children even worse.
throw_pm23 3y ago
This sounds good in theory, but in practice 2e and 2f will be the problem classes that everyone will be trying to escape, including those immigrant kids whose parents are more upwards-mobile and who pay attention to their kids education.
- c00lio 3y ago
  Yes, but on the other hand, the same thing is currently happening, just on the scale of parents moving out of school districts with "problem schools" that are mostly determined by a higher migrant percentage. Thus accelerating the formation of migrant and lower class neighborhoods and upper class suburbs. Providing different classes at the same school would at least allow some contact of those different groups of children, and in a similar fashion, contacts between the adult population.
- thriftwy 3y ago
  Would not that be a good thing because they have incentive to perform better?

by c00lio 3y ago

tfourb 3y ago

Just to share some insights from our local rural primary school (where I am the head of the parent's association and have regular conversations with the school principal about personnel) and from a primary school in Berlin Kreutzberg (where my sister is a teacher): Schools get a number of "teaching hours" allotted based on the number of children attending that school (some children might be classed as requiring more hours, i.e. those with certified special learning requirements). It is universally accepted (except by the politicians setting those hours) that these are insufficient to actually provide the supervision and support to have the learning outcomes that are desirable and demanded by government/parents. They also do not cover additional (but foreseeable) requirements due to illness, etc. No school actually has all of these teaching hours covered because there are simply not enough teachers to go around. Even if, by some miracle, 100% of hours are covered at the beginning of the year, every teacher that leaves during the year due to illness, pregnancy, etc. is pushing down coverage. Because of the lack of actual teachers, the hours are also increasingly covered by people transferring from other professions. These are counted as full teaching staff, but are obviously not as qualified as actual teachers. Teachers are also expected to do a lot of stuff that is not teaching, i.e. school administration, social work, counseling, etc. My personal guess is that in most schools, you would actually need about 130% of the teaching hours currently allotted to provide a quality education for all pupils, while schools in special situations (i.e. large migrant populations) would need probably more like 150-200%. In reality, the typical school probably has only 80-90% of allotted hours available (some of which are covered by non-teachers) with schools in special situations often having even less, because they are typically situated in places with more budgetary constraints/not a desirable workplace.

tfourb 3y ago
Maybe also interesting/important in this context: Schools have only very limited ways to do their own hiring. Teachers are usually allocated by state government administrations. This tends to be a bureaucratic and drawn-out process. Normal teaching positions usually require a few months to fill under ideal conditions, positions for principals/vice principals can take more than a year, even if a candidate is available. Our primary school has been without a principal for a year now and while the vice-principal has been confirmed to take over the position, it will take a few months more to make that official. And only then the position of vice-principal will be recruited. Most likely, the school will be without a full administrative team for two years or more when all is said and done.
- G3rn0ti 3y ago
  > Teachers are usually allocated by state government administrations. This. Biggest issue in all variants of Germany’s education system. Schools should have their own budget which they can allocate as they wish and be allowed to freely raise additional budget from private of public sources for their projects. They should also have a say in the salary of the teachers they employ. In Germany, historically, all teachers are civil servants that can’t be fired and, hence, aren’t really held responsible for the outcome of their teachings. Especially in troublesome areas schools are left with often incompetent and lazy personnel make the situation for children even worse.

throw_pm23 3y ago

This sounds good in theory, but in practice 2e and 2f will be the problem classes that everyone will be trying to escape, including those immigrant kids whose parents are more upwards-mobile and who pay attention to their kids education.

c00lio 3y ago
Yes, but on the other hand, the same thing is currently happening, just on the scale of parents moving out of school districts with "problem schools" that are mostly determined by a higher migrant percentage. Thus accelerating the formation of migrant and lower class neighborhoods and upper class suburbs. Providing different classes at the same school would at least allow some contact of those different groups of children, and in a similar fashion, contacts between the adult population.
thriftwy 3y ago
Would not that be a good thing because they have incentive to perform better?