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Having been through basic training (OSUT) and done my own cadre time at the JFK Special Warfare Center at Bragg... I have never experienced nor customized train

by 23B1 3y ago

Having been through basic training (OSUT) and done my own cadre time at the JFK Special Warfare Center at Bragg... I have never experienced nor customized training to a student based on their beliefs, or background, etc. The training is to the standard, not to the student – and ain't nobody got time to look at student's records anyway.

tyingq 3y ago
Perhaps you're younger? It was, at one time, pretty common to base the rage abuse on the recruit's religion, place of birth or induction, personal items/photos in the locker/wallet, observations on what made the recruit react, records, tests and so on. It was not hidden or subtle. There was a pretty big swing in the training in the 90's, following the Tailhook and other scandals where the physical stuff, constant swearing and humiliation was phased down. There have been a few rounds of this, over the years, usually following pressure from a scandal. I've also been in basic training, but in the late 1980's. I definitely got the personalized plan. I also got to hear the DI yell about other people's specific details. Who didn't have a father listed, who had a criminal record, who had to fill out details of pre-induction drug use, who almost flunked the ASVAB, who had a GED instead of a high school diploma, what idiot would be a JEE-HOVAS-WITNESS and so on. And worse. Didn't happen in my stay, but "blanket party beatings" and other hazing for some recruits was sometimes encouraged. My DI was more careful with physical stuff, though he did have this thing where he would drive his stiff hat brim into your eyes, lips, ears, etc. And quite a lot of saliva sprayed in my face whilst being yelled at.
- gabereiser 3y ago
  I grew up with an Army 101st DS/JAG/Judge. They do this at home too. During the same time period. My “personalized” training was reminding me my father left, I wasn’t his son, I was a ne’er-do-well, I’ll never amount to anything, I’m lucky my mother found him, and that I was lazy. F’king brutal for an 11 year old. I left home at 17 after I graduated early and scored 99/100 on the ASVABs just to rub it in his face, didn’t join, and went into tech for the last 20 years and made more than he has seen in his lifetime. The training worked.
  - zaroth 3y ago
    Damn. It’s really impressive you were able to turn that treatment around into such a motivating force. I often half-jokingly say I am raising my kids too cushy for them to ever create something extraordinary. Extraordinary achievements take extraordinary effort, and history seems to show the necessary drive for extraordinary efforts comes from brutal lessons that teach endurance and perseverance. Or as the saying goes… Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.
    - dbingham 3y ago
      This is empirically not true. To pick just a handful of obvious counter examples: Bill Gates was comfortablely upper middle class, Steve Jobs comfortablely middle class, both with solid family lives.
      - mistermann 3y ago
        > This is empirically not true. To pick just a handful of obvious counter examples... Do you believe "Donald Trump is a liar" to be empirically true?
      - mdp2021 3y ago
        It just means, "Grit boosts rates of success. Indulgence wakens grit".
    - sordina 3y ago
      Pithy but useless sentiment.
    - cjcenizal 3y ago
      I suggest you read Bret Devereaux's "This Isn't Sparta" [0] series. He dismantles the myth the "hard times" cycle you mentioned. For contemporary examples, just look at North Korea or Russia. Life is undeniably harder for citizens living in these countries, but where is the expected "strength" and "good times" that should result? [0] https://acoup.blog/2019/08/16/collections-this-isnt-sparta-part-i-spartan-school/ https://acoup.blog/2019/08/16/collections-this-isnt-sparta-p...
- 23B1 3y ago
  I have certainly experienced and given 'personalized' treatment, but it was never about going deep on personnel records – and always about the character, performance, and expectations at hand.
- jstarfish 3y ago
  > Perhaps you're younger? It was, at one time, pretty common to base the rage abuse on the recruit's religion, place of birth or induction, personal items/photos in the locker/wallet, observations on what made the recruit react, records, tests and so on. It was not hidden or subtle Funny that you're mentioning older protocols in a thread about 60s mind control... The military around that time was seen as a "correctional" institution to turn bad boys into men. Everything you describe about personalized treatment is a necessary step to breaking the willpower of someone with any sort of oppositional/defiance disorder. You have to figure out their mental weakpoint and rub both shit and salt in that wound to bring them to heel, because they won't listen to reason or respect/fear authority otherwise-- these are the types who'll laugh in the drill instructor's face. They'll do pushups and clean toilets all day out of spite. All of this should have started changing post-Vietnam.

by 23B1 3y ago

tyingq 3y ago

Perhaps you're younger? It was, at one time, pretty common to base the rage abuse on the recruit's religion, place of birth or induction, personal items/photos in the locker/wallet, observations on what made the recruit react, records, tests and so on. It was not hidden or subtle. There was a pretty big swing in the training in the 90's, following the Tailhook and other scandals where the physical stuff, constant swearing and humiliation was phased down. There have been a few rounds of this, over the years, usually following pressure from a scandal. I've also been in basic training, but in the late 1980's. I definitely got the personalized plan. I also got to hear the DI yell about other people's specific details. Who didn't have a father listed, who had a criminal record, who had to fill out details of pre-induction drug use, who almost flunked the ASVAB, who had a GED instead of a high school diploma, what idiot would be a JEE-HOVAS-WITNESS and so on. And worse. Didn't happen in my stay, but "blanket party beatings" and other hazing for some recruits was sometimes encouraged. My DI was more careful with physical stuff, though he did have this thing where he would drive his stiff hat brim into your eyes, lips, ears, etc. And quite a lot of saliva sprayed in my face whilst being yelled at.

gabereiser 3y ago
I grew up with an Army 101st DS/JAG/Judge. They do this at home too. During the same time period. My “personalized” training was reminding me my father left, I wasn’t his son, I was a ne’er-do-well, I’ll never amount to anything, I’m lucky my mother found him, and that I was lazy. F’king brutal for an 11 year old. I left home at 17 after I graduated early and scored 99/100 on the ASVABs just to rub it in his face, didn’t join, and went into tech for the last 20 years and made more than he has seen in his lifetime. The training worked.
- zaroth 3y ago
  Damn. It’s really impressive you were able to turn that treatment around into such a motivating force. I often half-jokingly say I am raising my kids too cushy for them to ever create something extraordinary. Extraordinary achievements take extraordinary effort, and history seems to show the necessary drive for extraordinary efforts comes from brutal lessons that teach endurance and perseverance. Or as the saying goes… Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.
  - dbingham 3y ago
    This is empirically not true. To pick just a handful of obvious counter examples: Bill Gates was comfortablely upper middle class, Steve Jobs comfortablely middle class, both with solid family lives.
    - mistermann 3y ago
      > This is empirically not true. To pick just a handful of obvious counter examples... Do you believe "Donald Trump is a liar" to be empirically true?
    - mdp2021 3y ago
      It just means, "Grit boosts rates of success. Indulgence wakens grit".
  - sordina 3y ago
    Pithy but useless sentiment.
  - cjcenizal 3y ago
    I suggest you read Bret Devereaux's "This Isn't Sparta" [0] series. He dismantles the myth the "hard times" cycle you mentioned. For contemporary examples, just look at North Korea or Russia. Life is undeniably harder for citizens living in these countries, but where is the expected "strength" and "good times" that should result? [0] https://acoup.blog/2019/08/16/collections-this-isnt-sparta-part-i-spartan-school/ https://acoup.blog/2019/08/16/collections-this-isnt-sparta-p...
23B1 3y ago
I have certainly experienced and given 'personalized' treatment, but it was never about going deep on personnel records – and always about the character, performance, and expectations at hand.
jstarfish 3y ago
> Perhaps you're younger? It was, at one time, pretty common to base the rage abuse on the recruit's religion, place of birth or induction, personal items/photos in the locker/wallet, observations on what made the recruit react, records, tests and so on. It was not hidden or subtle Funny that you're mentioning older protocols in a thread about 60s mind control... The military around that time was seen as a "correctional" institution to turn bad boys into men. Everything you describe about personalized treatment is a necessary step to breaking the willpower of someone with any sort of oppositional/defiance disorder. You have to figure out their mental weakpoint and rub both shit and salt in that wound to bring them to heel, because they won't listen to reason or respect/fear authority otherwise-- these are the types who'll laugh in the drill instructor's face. They'll do pushups and clean toilets all day out of spite. All of this should have started changing post-Vietnam.