7 ms·

I was glad to see a topic in which most HN contributors seem freely critical of US actions, which is not the case with more recent events. Talking of MK progra

I was glad to see a topic in which most HN contributors seem freely critical of US actions, which is not the case with more recent events. Talking of MK programs, I wanted to emphasize how far these agencies could go awry, see the alleged LSD poisoning of an entire French village in 1951 [1]. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-10996838 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-10996838

amanaplanacanal 3y ago
Plenty of more recent events which are pretty universally despised, like the invasion of Iraq, and the prison at Guantanamo, for instance.
- ikekkdcjkfke 3y ago
  Although one must be critical of these events, please be aware that soviet undermining is active in pushing these subjects. Just don't give up all hope and throw any babies out with the bathwater i guess.
  - shakow 3y ago
    Soviet undermining for things that happened... after the fall of the USSR? What?
  - black_puppydog 3y ago
    Lol, nice illustration of GP's point, thanks.
  - tehwebguy 3y ago
    “Although you make a good point, a ‘bad person’ made it too” Incredibly embarrassing post
  - nasmorn 3y ago
    I thought the invasion of Iraq and use that f Guantanamo are universally accepted to have been pretty idiotic even by super power standards. The USA gained no security and lost inordinate amounts of money, blood and good will.
    - swayvil 3y ago
      What's up with these weird typos? And is it just me or is there a consistency in the tone, among those who make these weird typos? It's just weird. Also it's early in the morning and I'm a little addled.
      - meiraleal 3y ago
        Yeah it is just you. Non-American users aren't Russian/soviet bots. It is interesting to see the tactics in discussion being used here: add conspiracy to facts so they seem less plausible.
        swayvil 3y ago
        Have you seen these typos? These aren't just "I don't speak the lingo" typos. And if I was attempting to bend the narrative, a good tool for that might be a counterargument that, tho apparently strong, is actually weak. Let's not be naive about how this works.
      - giantrobot 3y ago
        > What's up with these weird typos? I think sometimes the typos are speech-to-text artifacts. For instance "used that" would be phonetically similar to "used at" and I could see that easily tripping up STT. I know people that use STT and don't review the output before sending so I get weird text messages from them from time to time.
        meiraleal 3y ago
        > For instance "used that" would be phonetically similar to "used at" It was "and use that f Guantanamo" which is not that difficult to understand if you change "f" for "the F word".
    - oilchange 3y ago
      > blood Iraqis lost a lot of blood, not americans. 99% of the people killed were innocent iraqis.
  - jessepasley 3y ago
    Proofs please.
  - itsoktocry 3y ago
    This comment is evidence that you can now cover up any misdeeds as nothing but "Russian propaganda" and people will buy it.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- boomboomsubban 3y ago
  Yet not "enhanced interrogation," which is arguably a continuation of MK-Ultra experimentation. That has plenty of defenders, though I'd argue both the Iraq War and Guantanamo Bay aren't as universally despised as you claim.
  - boomboomsubban 3y ago
    There seems to be some who disagree with this, but the CIA did a lot of research into very similar things as MK-Ultra that they used to justify "enhanced interrogation." See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Elmer_Mitchell#Work_as_a_CIA_contractor_on_interrogation_practices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Elmer_Mitchell#Work_as_a...
  - StanislavPetrov 3y ago
    Unfortunately torture, both physical and psychological, long predates MK-Ultra.
- mistermann 3y ago
  At least we can rest assured that everything we've been told of what's going on in Ukraine and the causality the underlies it is True. Outrage at things in the past is easy, but if we want to really improve the world it may be necessary for smart people to stop refusing to think clearly on current events.
  - AbrahamParangi 3y ago
    I don’t know about this counterexample. Refusing to think clearly is what Russian apologia is made of. A world in which only the US has agency and only the US can do wrong is not clearheaded.
- fit2rule 3y ago
  [dead]
- sh34r 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - memefrog 3y ago
    [flagged]
sph 3y ago
Most criticism comes with the implicit belief that the US has cleaned up its act since the terrible experiments of the Cold War era. That's an intellectual fallacy it's easy to fall prey of: if most cultures and nations have committed heinous acts in their past, one should assume they are still doing terrible things to this day. MK-ULTRA is dead, but history teaches that one day we'll learn of something even worse that's occurring right under our noses in 2023. It is disingenuous to criticise what the CIA and other three letter agencies have done, while not being totally opposed to their existence to this day. Who knows how they are experimenting with people on US soil, how they are fomenting revolts and financing drug lords in South America today. Sadly, any such criticism can be easily waved away by calling it a conspiracy theory, which is how they keep operating with impunity. The only difference between an outlandish conspiracy theory and history are the existence of declassified government documents.
- guerrilla 3y ago
  > if most cultures and nations have committed heinous acts in their past, one should assume they are still doing terrible things to this day. Yeah, here's a list, plenty still ongoing: https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/us_atrocities.md https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/us_atrociti...
  - xtracto 3y ago
    This is a great text. Most internet English language forums have a heavy American culture bias. So it's not easy to find places to talk in a calm and unbiased manner about US imperialism. In a couple 100s of years , history will be talked about this era of "Pax Americana" and the lengths that the US Gov went trying to cling to its power. Is it good, is it bad? Depends on where you are really.
    - NLPaep 3y ago
      Having such a list on two American sites is noteworthy. On pikabu.ru, there is no war going on. Mass censorship.

amanaplanacanal 3y ago

Plenty of more recent events which are pretty universally despised, like the invasion of Iraq, and the prison at Guantanamo, for instance.

ikekkdcjkfke 3y ago
Although one must be critical of these events, please be aware that soviet undermining is active in pushing these subjects. Just don't give up all hope and throw any babies out with the bathwater i guess.
- shakow 3y ago
  Soviet undermining for things that happened... after the fall of the USSR? What?
- black_puppydog 3y ago
  Lol, nice illustration of GP's point, thanks.
- tehwebguy 3y ago
  “Although you make a good point, a ‘bad person’ made it too” Incredibly embarrassing post
- nasmorn 3y ago
  I thought the invasion of Iraq and use that f Guantanamo are universally accepted to have been pretty idiotic even by super power standards. The USA gained no security and lost inordinate amounts of money, blood and good will.
  - swayvil 3y ago
    What's up with these weird typos? And is it just me or is there a consistency in the tone, among those who make these weird typos? It's just weird. Also it's early in the morning and I'm a little addled.
    - meiraleal 3y ago
      Yeah it is just you. Non-American users aren't Russian/soviet bots. It is interesting to see the tactics in discussion being used here: add conspiracy to facts so they seem less plausible.
      - swayvil 3y ago
        Have you seen these typos? These aren't just "I don't speak the lingo" typos. And if I was attempting to bend the narrative, a good tool for that might be a counterargument that, tho apparently strong, is actually weak. Let's not be naive about how this works.
    - giantrobot 3y ago
      > What's up with these weird typos? I think sometimes the typos are speech-to-text artifacts. For instance "used that" would be phonetically similar to "used at" and I could see that easily tripping up STT. I know people that use STT and don't review the output before sending so I get weird text messages from them from time to time.
      - meiraleal 3y ago
        > For instance "used that" would be phonetically similar to "used at" It was "and use that f Guantanamo" which is not that difficult to understand if you change "f" for "the F word".
  - oilchange 3y ago
    > blood Iraqis lost a lot of blood, not americans. 99% of the people killed were innocent iraqis.
- jessepasley 3y ago
  Proofs please.
- itsoktocry 3y ago
  This comment is evidence that you can now cover up any misdeeds as nothing but "Russian propaganda" and people will buy it.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
boomboomsubban 3y ago
Yet not "enhanced interrogation," which is arguably a continuation of MK-Ultra experimentation. That has plenty of defenders, though I'd argue both the Iraq War and Guantanamo Bay aren't as universally despised as you claim.
- boomboomsubban 3y ago
  There seems to be some who disagree with this, but the CIA did a lot of research into very similar things as MK-Ultra that they used to justify "enhanced interrogation." See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Elmer_Mitchell#Work_as_a_CIA_contractor_on_interrogation_practices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Elmer_Mitchell#Work_as_a...
- StanislavPetrov 3y ago
  Unfortunately torture, both physical and psychological, long predates MK-Ultra.
mistermann 3y ago
At least we can rest assured that everything we've been told of what's going on in Ukraine and the causality the underlies it is True. Outrage at things in the past is easy, but if we want to really improve the world it may be necessary for smart people to stop refusing to think clearly on current events.
- AbrahamParangi 3y ago
  I don’t know about this counterexample. Refusing to think clearly is what Russian apologia is made of. A world in which only the US has agency and only the US can do wrong is not clearheaded.
fit2rule 3y ago
[dead]
sh34r 3y ago
[flagged]
- memefrog 3y ago
  [flagged]

sph 3y ago

Most criticism comes with the implicit belief that the US has cleaned up its act since the terrible experiments of the Cold War era. That's an intellectual fallacy it's easy to fall prey of: if most cultures and nations have committed heinous acts in their past, one should assume they are still doing terrible things to this day. MK-ULTRA is dead, but history teaches that one day we'll learn of something even worse that's occurring right under our noses in 2023. It is disingenuous to criticise what the CIA and other three letter agencies have done, while not being totally opposed to their existence to this day. Who knows how they are experimenting with people on US soil, how they are fomenting revolts and financing drug lords in South America today. Sadly, any such criticism can be easily waved away by calling it a conspiracy theory, which is how they keep operating with impunity. The only difference between an outlandish conspiracy theory and history are the existence of declassified government documents.

guerrilla 3y ago
> if most cultures and nations have committed heinous acts in their past, one should assume they are still doing terrible things to this day. Yeah, here's a list, plenty still ongoing: https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/us_atrocities.md https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/us_atrociti...
- xtracto 3y ago
  This is a great text. Most internet English language forums have a heavy American culture bias. So it's not easy to find places to talk in a calm and unbiased manner about US imperialism. In a couple 100s of years , history will be talked about this era of "Pax Americana" and the lengths that the US Gov went trying to cling to its power. Is it good, is it bad? Depends on where you are really.
  - NLPaep 3y ago
    Having such a list on two American sites is noteworthy. On pikabu.ru, there is no war going on. Mass censorship.