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TSMC Exec Says Workers Unwilling to Take Shifts Should Not Enter Chipmaking

18 points by markus_zhang 3y ago

fuzzfactor 3y ago
There's a lot of things you should not enter if you are not strongly willed for 24/7 operation and appropriate readiness. >common complaints mention: Heavy workloads Poor training Long hours High expectations from bosses / supervisors Limited breaks Work-life balance issues ‘Military style’ controlling atmosphere Stress >12-hour days being standard practice Poor training & undue stress are inexcusable, but the remaining factors must not be the cause of either when suitable workers are involved, and should not be complained about. You need a hell of a lot more effective discipline than in the military, and it needs to be inner discipline so nothing overwhelming has to be imposed in a controlling way. The atmosphere of a well-oiled machine is by far most effective when no-one is barking orders whatsoever. It's not supposed to be something that just anybody can do, especially not do well.
- nine_k 3y ago
  This is not unreasonable. It also sets expectations of a proper compensation, because inner discipline is not really in an abundant supply.
bell-cot 3y ago
Vs. doing a quick web search just now, for what it's like to work in an Intel fab - the top (relevant) search result is a Glassdoor review headlined "don't work in the fab". To what degree is Intel's less-bad Glassdoor rating (mentioned in the article) a result of "Intel's fabs are almost as bad, but they have lots of non-fab employees in the U.S., to dilute those downvotes..."?
hunglee2 3y ago
One underrated factor behind poor work conditions in SC is that the industry is highly concentrated, with often only one or two dominant players playing a critical role in process. ASML on lithography, TSMC as foundry etc. This effectively means that employees don't have comparable, competitor employers to go to - where else do you go if you are a TSMC engineer? Hence, surprisingly labour has a weak negotiating position, resulting in very hard working conditions
- jmoak3 3y ago
  Yup! It’s not enough to do something that’s hard to obtain a good life - there needs to be more open roles than people able to fill them in your line of work.
- Proven 3y ago
  [dead]
- sentinalien 3y ago
  Sounds like they need a union
- courseofaction 3y ago
  This does just sound like market forces justified with ideology. TSMC is signalling that you better love it because it ain't gonna compensate you properly. The games industry is the same from the other direction (excess of willing labor).
  - sieabahlpark 3y ago
    [dead]
- hulitu 3y ago
  > where else do you go if you are a TSMC engineer? What is a "TSMC engineer" ? Electronics engineers can find work in other companies.
throwbigdata 3y ago
Lots of empathy for the labor class, but no balance for the incredible results!
nine_zeros 3y ago
Is this exec taking shifts at the floor for the same low compensation? If no, they have no right to say what others must or must not do.
SturgeonsLaw 3y ago
"Nobody wants to work any more"
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Right? There is no shortage of workers, just a shortage of workers willing to tolerate bullshit. Let industries that operate like this this bleed out until they change their ways. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/19/us/politics/semiconductor-worker-shortage.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/19/us/politics/semiconductor... | http://archive.is/4iazV http://archive.is/4iazV
  - pstuart 3y ago
    Not just tolerate bullshit, but low pay as well. Minimum wage has not kept up with inflation.
gumballindie 3y ago
Cool. Thats why many dont. No one wants to work in such conditions and no one should. Wondering if he’s going to be as cocky when taiwan will need western help against china.
- super256 3y ago
  > No one wants to work in such conditions and no one should. Honestly, I would if the pay is good and it doesn’t alternate on a weekly basis. When I was working at Amazon we had weekly alternating shifts and they are the worst. It would’ve been better if the time interval between shifts would be longer, like 5 weeks, so for example you work 5 weeks night shift, 5 weeks early shift, 5 weeks late shift and then 5 weeks night shift again.
courseofaction 3y ago
Executives unwilling to support workers adequately should not expect them to take shifts.
fdr 3y ago
I can see why something as capital intensive as semiconductors would need shifts, to use equipment as close to 24/7 as possible. But many other aspects of the working conditions are pretty bad, and not justified by the pay nor efficiency gains, I'd think. The enthusiasm that TSMC seems to think employees should have for their employer (in this and other articles) is off-putting, though explicable for a firm that is a standard-bearer for Taiwan, and at least in part a national project with symbolic significance there.
givemeethekeys 3y ago
Supply and demand. Offer more for the shit shift, and maybe workers will think about it.

18 points by markus_zhang 3y ago

There's a lot of things you should not enter if you are not strongly willed for 24/7 operation and appropriate readiness. >common complaints mention: Heavy workloads Poor training Long hours High expectations from bosses / supervisors Limited breaks Work-life balance issues ‘Military style’ controlling atmosphere Stress >12-hour days being standard practice Poor training & undue stress are inexcusable, but the remaining factors must not be the cause of either when suitable workers are involved, and should not be complained about. You need a hell of a lot more effective discipline than in the military, and it needs to be inner discipline so nothing overwhelming has to be imposed in a controlling way. The atmosphere of a well-oiled machine is by far most effective when no-one is barking orders whatsoever. It's not supposed to be something that just anybody can do, especially not do well.

nine_k 3y ago
This is not unreasonable. It also sets expectations of a proper compensation, because inner discipline is not really in an abundant supply.

bell-cot 3y ago

Vs. doing a quick web search just now, for what it's like to work in an Intel fab - the top (relevant) search result is a Glassdoor review headlined "don't work in the fab". To what degree is Intel's less-bad Glassdoor rating (mentioned in the article) a result of "Intel's fabs are almost as bad, but they have lots of non-fab employees in the U.S., to dilute those downvotes..."?

hunglee2 3y ago

One underrated factor behind poor work conditions in SC is that the industry is highly concentrated, with often only one or two dominant players playing a critical role in process. ASML on lithography, TSMC as foundry etc. This effectively means that employees don't have comparable, competitor employers to go to - where else do you go if you are a TSMC engineer? Hence, surprisingly labour has a weak negotiating position, resulting in very hard working conditions

jmoak3 3y ago
Yup! It’s not enough to do something that’s hard to obtain a good life - there needs to be more open roles than people able to fill them in your line of work.
Proven 3y ago
[dead]
sentinalien 3y ago
Sounds like they need a union
courseofaction 3y ago
This does just sound like market forces justified with ideology. TSMC is signalling that you better love it because it ain't gonna compensate you properly. The games industry is the same from the other direction (excess of willing labor).
- sieabahlpark 3y ago
  [dead]
hulitu 3y ago
> where else do you go if you are a TSMC engineer? What is a "TSMC engineer" ? Electronics engineers can find work in other companies.

throwbigdata 3y ago

Lots of empathy for the labor class, but no balance for the incredible results!

nine_zeros 3y ago

Is this exec taking shifts at the floor for the same low compensation? If no, they have no right to say what others must or must not do.

SturgeonsLaw 3y ago

"Nobody wants to work any more"

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Right? There is no shortage of workers, just a shortage of workers willing to tolerate bullshit. Let industries that operate like this this bleed out until they change their ways. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/19/us/politics/semiconductor-worker-shortage.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/19/us/politics/semiconductor... | http://archive.is/4iazV http://archive.is/4iazV
- pstuart 3y ago
  Not just tolerate bullshit, but low pay as well. Minimum wage has not kept up with inflation.

gumballindie 3y ago

Cool. Thats why many dont. No one wants to work in such conditions and no one should. Wondering if he’s going to be as cocky when taiwan will need western help against china.

super256 3y ago
> No one wants to work in such conditions and no one should. Honestly, I would if the pay is good and it doesn’t alternate on a weekly basis. When I was working at Amazon we had weekly alternating shifts and they are the worst. It would’ve been better if the time interval between shifts would be longer, like 5 weeks, so for example you work 5 weeks night shift, 5 weeks early shift, 5 weeks late shift and then 5 weeks night shift again.

courseofaction 3y ago

Executives unwilling to support workers adequately should not expect them to take shifts.

fdr 3y ago

I can see why something as capital intensive as semiconductors would need shifts, to use equipment as close to 24/7 as possible. But many other aspects of the working conditions are pretty bad, and not justified by the pay nor efficiency gains, I'd think. The enthusiasm that TSMC seems to think employees should have for their employer (in this and other articles) is off-putting, though explicable for a firm that is a standard-bearer for Taiwan, and at least in part a national project with symbolic significance there.

givemeethekeys 3y ago

Supply and demand. Offer more for the shit shift, and maybe workers will think about it.