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Given that it is mostly unsubstantiated bullshit it is not surprising that you have not heard of it before. The claims made are tenuous at best. While an underg

by evgen 3y ago

Given that it is mostly unsubstantiated bullshit it is not surprising that you have not heard of it before. The claims made are tenuous at best. While an undergrad Kaczynski participated in a psych experiment run by someone who worked for the OSS in WWII, that is literally the extent of the known truth here. It seemed to have not impacted his undergrad years, his graduate studies, his postgrad work, or getting one of the youngest professorships at Berkeley. The same people who claim Kaczynski's transition to the Unabomber was caused by the, otherwise hidden, trauma of this participation in an undergrad psych experiment will also gush effusively about Ted's manifesto and how profound it is; you are likely seeing people taking a person and set of events and pouring into it their own hopes/fears/expectations rather than anything of greater significance. Either way, check the evidence before believing the claims remains useful advice.

whitepaint 3y ago
> Given that it is mostly unsubstantiated bullshit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra
- gilleain 3y ago
  I have no particular bias (I think!) either way, and certainly no background ... However. That wiki page has Kaczynski under 'Alleged subjects' not under 'Documented subjects'.
hjrtl 3y ago
I have not seen the link between talking about the Mk Ultra connection and endorsing the manifesto at all. In this very Washington Post article there is no such connection. If the program at Harvard was innocent, why does Harvard refuse to comment (again, according to the WP)? Why was there such a program in the first place?
FrustratedMonky 3y ago
I think it is possible to say a guy that got jacked up on drugs and experimented on, and was traumatized, would later act out violently, without also treating him as some eco-messiah. The Occom's razer is, the experimenting just pushed someone borderline over the edge. Not that he was a sleeper agent. I guess you are saying that because he seemed to have several 'normal' years, that is proof that the experiments did nothing. But that seems to go against how others with trauma live normally for years before it manifests. It seems to be a common curve through life. Because Ted went so extreme and got famous for it, we forget that it probably wouldn't have taken much to go another direction. Like "hey Ted you seem to be acting out lately, here, have some help", and then he gets help, goes back to a normal but troubled life, he has thoughts of the past trauma, has some violent thoughts, but learns to deal with it.
eggy 3y ago
I wouldn't call it "unsubtantiated bullshit" or "tenuous at best" claims. They put Kaczynski in the ballpark of being a participant of the MK Ultra program. Do you think they have shared and took away all redacted bits of information? "Conspiracy Theory" with Mel Gibson and Julia Robers looks less like a comedy the older I get, and the more I find out. Don't be the government puppet in the techno spy thriller who stares wide-eyed in horror with disbelief while tied to a chair as the CIA goons put the needle in your arm ;)
0x_rs 3y ago
>it is mostly unsubstantiated bullshit It certainly is convenient most of the documents were destroyed at CIA director's orders and those surviving were due to a categorization error, and all involved had very little to recall about it also. Involvement, whether confirmed or not, should not be a justification—by any means—but the extent of psychological damage caused to the subjects involved I don't think has been properly evaluated over time. To be fair, this wasn't the first nor the last human experimentation project the US committed on their own ground or in other countries, so it might not have been considered as important as other, more "physical" programs. It still remains abhorrent. [Gottlieb, project head] came to me and said that he was retiring and that I was retiring and he thought it would be a good idea if these files were destroyed. And I also believe part of the reason for our thinking this was advisable was there had been relationships with outsiders in government agencies and other organizations and that these would be sensitive in this kind of a thing but that since the program was over and finished and done with, we thought we would just get rid of the files as well, so that anybody who assisted us in the past would not be subject to follow-up or questions, embarrassment, if you will. (former CIA director Richard Helms testimony, 9/11/75)
- venusenvy47 3y ago
  Kaczynski didn't feel that the sessions were abusive in any way. Whether he is telling the truth can be debated, but he himself doesn't claim he went through anything more than simple written tests. There's a quote on this topic in this article: https://www.deadlinedetroit.com/articles/19050/retired_fbi_agent_the_unabomber_and_i_agree_--_tv_series_is_inaccurate https://www.deadlinedetroit.com/articles/19050/retired_fbi_a...

by evgen 3y ago

whitepaint 3y ago

> Given that it is mostly unsubstantiated bullshit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra

gilleain 3y ago
I have no particular bias (I think!) either way, and certainly no background ... However. That wiki page has Kaczynski under 'Alleged subjects' not under 'Documented subjects'.

hjrtl 3y ago

I have not seen the link between talking about the Mk Ultra connection and endorsing the manifesto at all. In this very Washington Post article there is no such connection. If the program at Harvard was innocent, why does Harvard refuse to comment (again, according to the WP)? Why was there such a program in the first place?

FrustratedMonky 3y ago

I think it is possible to say a guy that got jacked up on drugs and experimented on, and was traumatized, would later act out violently, without also treating him as some eco-messiah. The Occom's razer is, the experimenting just pushed someone borderline over the edge. Not that he was a sleeper agent. I guess you are saying that because he seemed to have several 'normal' years, that is proof that the experiments did nothing. But that seems to go against how others with trauma live normally for years before it manifests. It seems to be a common curve through life. Because Ted went so extreme and got famous for it, we forget that it probably wouldn't have taken much to go another direction. Like "hey Ted you seem to be acting out lately, here, have some help", and then he gets help, goes back to a normal but troubled life, he has thoughts of the past trauma, has some violent thoughts, but learns to deal with it.

eggy 3y ago

I wouldn't call it "unsubtantiated bullshit" or "tenuous at best" claims. They put Kaczynski in the ballpark of being a participant of the MK Ultra program. Do you think they have shared and took away all redacted bits of information? "Conspiracy Theory" with Mel Gibson and Julia Robers looks less like a comedy the older I get, and the more I find out. Don't be the government puppet in the techno spy thriller who stares wide-eyed in horror with disbelief while tied to a chair as the CIA goons put the needle in your arm ;)

0x_rs 3y ago

>it is mostly unsubstantiated bullshit It certainly is convenient most of the documents were destroyed at CIA director's orders and those surviving were due to a categorization error, and all involved had very little to recall about it also. Involvement, whether confirmed or not, should not be a justification—by any means—but the extent of psychological damage caused to the subjects involved I don't think has been properly evaluated over time. To be fair, this wasn't the first nor the last human experimentation project the US committed on their own ground or in other countries, so it might not have been considered as important as other, more "physical" programs. It still remains abhorrent. [Gottlieb, project head] came to me and said that he was retiring and that I was retiring and he thought it would be a good idea if these files were destroyed. And I also believe part of the reason for our thinking this was advisable was there had been relationships with outsiders in government agencies and other organizations and that these would be sensitive in this kind of a thing but that since the program was over and finished and done with, we thought we would just get rid of the files as well, so that anybody who assisted us in the past would not be subject to follow-up or questions, embarrassment, if you will. (former CIA director Richard Helms testimony, 9/11/75)

venusenvy47 3y ago
Kaczynski didn't feel that the sessions were abusive in any way. Whether he is telling the truth can be debated, but he himself doesn't claim he went through anything more than simple written tests. There's a quote on this topic in this article: https://www.deadlinedetroit.com/articles/19050/retired_fbi_agent_the_unabomber_and_i_agree_--_tv_series_is_inaccurate https://www.deadlinedetroit.com/articles/19050/retired_fbi_a...