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> democracies have to work together and build mutual trust, and not spy on one another. The first part seems true, but the second part doesn’t follow. Spying o

> democracies have to work together and build mutual trust, and not spy on one another. The first part seems true, but the second part doesn’t follow. Spying on allies seems an entirely reasonable, possibly even necessary, part of effective diplomacy. I trust what you are saying more when I can verify congruence with things I can observe.

cumshitpiss 3y ago
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H8crilA 3y ago
Sąd, but true. The sad part is that it can give "unfair" advantages to the party that is better at spying abroad and/or counterintelligence at home. After all every alliance has some points of conflict (see the Inflation Reduction Act vs Europe, as an example).
cirosantilli 3y ago
The problem is if these things are found and become public, it makes the targeted country really dislike the spying country. This creates a political pressure against aligning with the spying country. Many Brazilians are deeply distrustful of the USA, and are even willing to align themselves with dictatorships. Personally, I'll never support a dictatorship. But many people will just to have an alternative world power pole. Alliances are like friendships. If you spy one your friends, of course they are going to get mad and push you away. We have instead to make opt-in intelligence sharing programs with our allies.
dingdongg 3y ago
well, others may see it differently..
wongarsu 3y ago
A key part here is "democracies". Between dictatorships, mutual spying to establish trust can be a reasonable policy. But a democracy has to factor in the opinion of their citizens. People tend to dislike foreign countries spying on them, and will create incentives for their government to distance themselves from such countries. Even if you try to keep it on the down-low, it makes it really easy for a third country to drive a wedge in the relationship.
C-x_C-f 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust,_but_verify https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust,_but_verify
dundarious 3y ago
The same argument applies to US citizens, public interest groups, political activists, government officials, politicians, etc. I don’t agree with you.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  Spying seems indistinguishable from the investigative work that undercover detectives do regularly. I think there’s a proper non-zero place for that in society as well. (There’s also improper possible applications, but the proper is not the null set.)
  - dundarious 3y ago
    What you're describing is illegal under the conditions you've outlined. There is no reasonable suspicion or ethical justification for bugging Angela Merkel's phone -- comparing it to regular detective work is ridiculous. It's just one part of the unethical anarchy at the heart of the supposed international "order", where most countries are just trying to get ahead of the other guys -- but the US is the most pompous in pretending its actions are uniquely principled and those of others are uniquely nefarious. It's ironic on a scale not seen before in all human history. Free countries have the greatest need to properly "educate" the population that it's all just prudent and good, actually -- and the US has done an excellent job at that.

cumshitpiss 3y ago

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H8crilA 3y ago

Sąd, but true. The sad part is that it can give "unfair" advantages to the party that is better at spying abroad and/or counterintelligence at home. After all every alliance has some points of conflict (see the Inflation Reduction Act vs Europe, as an example).

cirosantilli 3y ago

The problem is if these things are found and become public, it makes the targeted country really dislike the spying country. This creates a political pressure against aligning with the spying country. Many Brazilians are deeply distrustful of the USA, and are even willing to align themselves with dictatorships. Personally, I'll never support a dictatorship. But many people will just to have an alternative world power pole. Alliances are like friendships. If you spy one your friends, of course they are going to get mad and push you away. We have instead to make opt-in intelligence sharing programs with our allies.

dingdongg 3y ago

well, others may see it differently..

wongarsu 3y ago

A key part here is "democracies". Between dictatorships, mutual spying to establish trust can be a reasonable policy. But a democracy has to factor in the opinion of their citizens. People tend to dislike foreign countries spying on them, and will create incentives for their government to distance themselves from such countries. Even if you try to keep it on the down-low, it makes it really easy for a third country to drive a wedge in the relationship.

C-x_C-f 3y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust,_but_verify https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust,_but_verify

dundarious 3y ago

The same argument applies to US citizens, public interest groups, political activists, government officials, politicians, etc. I don’t agree with you.

sokoloff 3y ago
Spying seems indistinguishable from the investigative work that undercover detectives do regularly. I think there’s a proper non-zero place for that in society as well. (There’s also improper possible applications, but the proper is not the null set.)
- dundarious 3y ago
  What you're describing is illegal under the conditions you've outlined. There is no reasonable suspicion or ethical justification for bugging Angela Merkel's phone -- comparing it to regular detective work is ridiculous. It's just one part of the unethical anarchy at the heart of the supposed international "order", where most countries are just trying to get ahead of the other guys -- but the US is the most pompous in pretending its actions are uniquely principled and those of others are uniquely nefarious. It's ironic on a scale not seen before in all human history. Free countries have the greatest need to properly "educate" the population that it's all just prudent and good, actually -- and the US has done an excellent job at that.