6 ms·

On a semi-related note, his short story, "Ship of Fools" is still depressingly accurate.

by jbm 3y ago

ElFitz 3y ago
Didn't know of it. It reminded me of Plato's.
JKCalhoun 3y ago
I had to find it online. The point of the story appears to justify murder as a legitimate means to enact change. Hard disagree here. I think a movement that turns to murder as a means of gaining power will continue using murder even should it achieve its goals. Someone in the past pointed out to me that the American Revolution is an exception to that. I don't disagree but so many other examples in history would seem to support my view.
- throwanem 3y ago
  It is a very interesting reading of American history in which murder as a tool of statecraft ended with the American Revolution, or indeed at all.
  - nemo44x 3y ago
    Yeah it’s sort of the foundation of NRx/Dark Enlightenment in that the Enlightenment and it’s progressivism (the dominant force in Western government the last few hundred years) has resulted in the most violent and destructive governments the world has ever seen. Even when not violent it’s incredibly coercive through its system of creating dependent states and of course justifying it because a democracy happened. Going back to the American revolution it was in essence a battle between the Tories and the Whigs with the rebels and a great deal of the British leadership being Whigs and making “the progress” of Americas founding inevitable.
    - throwanem 3y ago
      Yeah, it's sort of the foundation of NRx/Dark Enlightenment to take historical events broadly agreed in all credible quarters to have taken place, and then spin the goddamnedest nonsense anyone ever heard out of them. Not that you'd know it by Moldbug or his imitators, but is possible to criticize American hegemony without playacting Jane Fonda at the Reichskanzlei.
- shmde 3y ago
  From the story ---------- The professor elevated his nose and said sternly, “I don’t believe in violence. It’s immoral.” “It’s unethical ever to use violence,” said the bosun. “I’m terrified of violence,” said the lady passenger. -------------- They are literally talking about people like you in the story lmao. The ship is further going north and they know they are gonna drown if they don't have a violent revolution against the captain and throw him out of the ship(killing him) so that they can turn the ship around. > "The point of the story appears to justify murder as a legitimate means to enact change." Well what the hell do you do in this scenario(in the story) ?? Have a non-violence protest and risk losing lives ?? Or throw the captain off the ship and steer it south ?? Violence/Murder is 1000% justified and is the answer in this story's scenario. “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - John F. Kennedy
  - inglor_cz 3y ago
    I, on the other hand, consider the story to be too simplistic. It reads like an abstract concept hammered out by a smart person far from any actual life-threatening situation, which is what it actually is. The captain and his mates don't necessarily need killing, even though a revolt might be desirable. Even in plenty of actual ship mutinies, the rebels didn't outright kill the overthrown officers, only imprisoned or marooned them. And that was in the context of the death penalty hanging over them if they failed. Violent revolutions in general have the small problem of bringing other violent psychopaths to power. Kaczynski might not mind, but I do. It was a well-known problem in actual pirate crews as well, and pirates actually had some interesting rules (including a fairly modern division of powers on board) to prevent the most violent psychos from taking over their ships and introduce some measure of consensus into their internal politics. His caricature of "weaklings abhorring violence" does not address the succession problem at all, and even if the original officer crew was bad, another officer crew self-selected of willing murderers could conceivably be worse by being both professionally incompetent and ready to torture their opponents etc.
    - mdp2021 3y ago
      > far from any actual life-threatening situation, which is what it actually is Not clear. Several legitimate interpretations of "going North" into current situations are factually «life-threatening».
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  There are entire fields dedicated to this question. Do violent revolutions ever work? But then, have any peaceful ones worked? History is full of violent revolutions that continued to be violent as you say, but even less peaceful revolutions that worked. Of course, you can also argue that all government is a form of violence, the police are the only ones allowed by society to enact violence to protect property. If the state actions diverge from the population ideals enough, then to some extent the population is already at war with the state.
- 11235813213455 3y ago
  French revolution 1789 maybe too? (Even if currency democracies start to be too disconnected to people again, I'd prefer direct democracy like in Switzerland) Arab spring protests too 2011 There are many examples actually, and there will be more and more with the current rate of environmental destruction. I can already forecast people blocking airports in the future if the governments don't anticipate and regulate drastically civil aviation
  - sudosysgen 3y ago
    Huh? The Arab Spring movement was mostly coopted by Jihadists. The French Revolution was followed by decades of Terror which led to more dictatorship and death, and even after that the death and dictatorship merely moved over to the colonies.
    - 11235813213455 3y ago
      French revolution happened for a reason, not saying it's necessarily better after, but it's an example where the pressure on people was too high, and they used violence to change things
hutzlibu 3y ago
What do you think is accurate? That we have to turn 180 degree south, meaning in this context abolish industrialisation, let some bilions starve and go back working the land with stone tools, or hunting and gathering?
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  There doesn't have to be all black and white solutions. If he had some good points on industrialization, that doesn't mean people are saying we should go back and live in caves. Maybe recycle some, or get an EV, or something. You can make small differences to improve without abolishing all industry. Just as you say the only response is 180 degrees and abolish industry. Then what is your current 0 degrees heading, dumping waste right in the rivers, abolish the EPA to let industry profit more? Cut all safeguards on industry?
  - School-Cotton 3y ago
    Ted Kaczynski would have been appalled that someone who thought we should “recycle some, or get an EV, or something” felt inspired by his writing. He really did think humanity should revert to primitive agriculturalism, and was an extremist who was not willing to compromise on this point. Also, environmentalism is at most a distant secondary theme in the manifesto. The primary reasons he gives for being anti-industrialization have nothing to do with preserving the environment.
    - 11235813213455 3y ago
      Recycling is still polluting a lot (from transports, energy, resources, emissions) and it's not handling that much material, and only a couple cycles between different plastics classes. EV also is also polluting on the same order of magnitude than fossil fuel cars. You can avoid plastic wrappings, and use more you legs (walk, bike) without going full primitive. That's really the problem, how did industry managed to make people think recycling and EV is ecology? The power of ads and communication, because it's not
dennis_jeeves1 3y ago
Link: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ted-kaczynski-ship-of-fools https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ted-kaczynski-ship-o...
mdp2021 3y ago
Thank you. > They’re keeping you occupied with your trivial grievances... so that you won’t think about what is really wrong with this ship ... In comparison to our real problem... your grievances are petty The depicted perspective - determined insistence in "normal planning" in situations which are far from the conditions for "normal administration" - is one of the marks of these times in some areas... An Era of Myopia, of early stopping. Regardless of the nature of "going North or South" beyond the metaphor. "Ship of Fools" should be considered an obligatory reading. (The paradox of recommending a text reiterating that "people are refractory on getting the point" is quite old and already has its answers.)

On a semi-related note, his short story, "Ship of Fools" is still depressingly accurate.

by jbm 3y ago

On a semi-related note, his short story, "Ship of Fools" is still depressingly accurate.

ElFitz 3y ago

Didn't know of it. It reminded me of Plato's.

JKCalhoun 3y ago

I had to find it online. The point of the story appears to justify murder as a legitimate means to enact change. Hard disagree here. I think a movement that turns to murder as a means of gaining power will continue using murder even should it achieve its goals. Someone in the past pointed out to me that the American Revolution is an exception to that. I don't disagree but so many other examples in history would seem to support my view.

throwanem 3y ago
It is a very interesting reading of American history in which murder as a tool of statecraft ended with the American Revolution, or indeed at all.
- nemo44x 3y ago
  Yeah it’s sort of the foundation of NRx/Dark Enlightenment in that the Enlightenment and it’s progressivism (the dominant force in Western government the last few hundred years) has resulted in the most violent and destructive governments the world has ever seen. Even when not violent it’s incredibly coercive through its system of creating dependent states and of course justifying it because a democracy happened. Going back to the American revolution it was in essence a battle between the Tories and the Whigs with the rebels and a great deal of the British leadership being Whigs and making “the progress” of Americas founding inevitable.
  - throwanem 3y ago
    Yeah, it's sort of the foundation of NRx/Dark Enlightenment to take historical events broadly agreed in all credible quarters to have taken place, and then spin the goddamnedest nonsense anyone ever heard out of them. Not that you'd know it by Moldbug or his imitators, but is possible to criticize American hegemony without playacting Jane Fonda at the Reichskanzlei.
shmde 3y ago
From the story ---------- The professor elevated his nose and said sternly, “I don’t believe in violence. It’s immoral.” “It’s unethical ever to use violence,” said the bosun. “I’m terrified of violence,” said the lady passenger. -------------- They are literally talking about people like you in the story lmao. The ship is further going north and they know they are gonna drown if they don't have a violent revolution against the captain and throw him out of the ship(killing him) so that they can turn the ship around. > "The point of the story appears to justify murder as a legitimate means to enact change." Well what the hell do you do in this scenario(in the story) ?? Have a non-violence protest and risk losing lives ?? Or throw the captain off the ship and steer it south ?? Violence/Murder is 1000% justified and is the answer in this story's scenario. “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - John F. Kennedy
- inglor_cz 3y ago
  I, on the other hand, consider the story to be too simplistic. It reads like an abstract concept hammered out by a smart person far from any actual life-threatening situation, which is what it actually is. The captain and his mates don't necessarily need killing, even though a revolt might be desirable. Even in plenty of actual ship mutinies, the rebels didn't outright kill the overthrown officers, only imprisoned or marooned them. And that was in the context of the death penalty hanging over them if they failed. Violent revolutions in general have the small problem of bringing other violent psychopaths to power. Kaczynski might not mind, but I do. It was a well-known problem in actual pirate crews as well, and pirates actually had some interesting rules (including a fairly modern division of powers on board) to prevent the most violent psychos from taking over their ships and introduce some measure of consensus into their internal politics. His caricature of "weaklings abhorring violence" does not address the succession problem at all, and even if the original officer crew was bad, another officer crew self-selected of willing murderers could conceivably be worse by being both professionally incompetent and ready to torture their opponents etc.
  - mdp2021 3y ago
    > far from any actual life-threatening situation, which is what it actually is Not clear. Several legitimate interpretations of "going North" into current situations are factually «life-threatening».
FrustratedMonky 3y ago
There are entire fields dedicated to this question. Do violent revolutions ever work? But then, have any peaceful ones worked? History is full of violent revolutions that continued to be violent as you say, but even less peaceful revolutions that worked. Of course, you can also argue that all government is a form of violence, the police are the only ones allowed by society to enact violence to protect property. If the state actions diverge from the population ideals enough, then to some extent the population is already at war with the state.
11235813213455 3y ago
French revolution 1789 maybe too? (Even if currency democracies start to be too disconnected to people again, I'd prefer direct democracy like in Switzerland) Arab spring protests too 2011 There are many examples actually, and there will be more and more with the current rate of environmental destruction. I can already forecast people blocking airports in the future if the governments don't anticipate and regulate drastically civil aviation
- sudosysgen 3y ago
  Huh? The Arab Spring movement was mostly coopted by Jihadists. The French Revolution was followed by decades of Terror which led to more dictatorship and death, and even after that the death and dictatorship merely moved over to the colonies.
  - 11235813213455 3y ago
    French revolution happened for a reason, not saying it's necessarily better after, but it's an example where the pressure on people was too high, and they used violence to change things

hutzlibu 3y ago

What do you think is accurate? That we have to turn 180 degree south, meaning in this context abolish industrialisation, let some bilions starve and go back working the land with stone tools, or hunting and gathering?

FrustratedMonky 3y ago
There doesn't have to be all black and white solutions. If he had some good points on industrialization, that doesn't mean people are saying we should go back and live in caves. Maybe recycle some, or get an EV, or something. You can make small differences to improve without abolishing all industry. Just as you say the only response is 180 degrees and abolish industry. Then what is your current 0 degrees heading, dumping waste right in the rivers, abolish the EPA to let industry profit more? Cut all safeguards on industry?
- School-Cotton 3y ago
  Ted Kaczynski would have been appalled that someone who thought we should “recycle some, or get an EV, or something” felt inspired by his writing. He really did think humanity should revert to primitive agriculturalism, and was an extremist who was not willing to compromise on this point. Also, environmentalism is at most a distant secondary theme in the manifesto. The primary reasons he gives for being anti-industrialization have nothing to do with preserving the environment.
  - 11235813213455 3y ago
    Recycling is still polluting a lot (from transports, energy, resources, emissions) and it's not handling that much material, and only a couple cycles between different plastics classes. EV also is also polluting on the same order of magnitude than fossil fuel cars. You can avoid plastic wrappings, and use more you legs (walk, bike) without going full primitive. That's really the problem, how did industry managed to make people think recycling and EV is ecology? The power of ads and communication, because it's not

dennis_jeeves1 3y ago

Link: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ted-kaczynski-ship-of-fools https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ted-kaczynski-ship-o...

mdp2021 3y ago

Thank you. > They’re keeping you occupied with your trivial grievances... so that you won’t think about what is really wrong with this ship ... In comparison to our real problem... your grievances are petty The depicted perspective - determined insistence in "normal planning" in situations which are far from the conditions for "normal administration" - is one of the marks of these times in some areas... An Era of Myopia, of early stopping. Regardless of the nature of "going North or South" beyond the metaphor. "Ship of Fools" should be considered an obligatory reading. (The paradox of recommending a text reiterating that "people are refractory on getting the point" is quite old and already has its answers.)