7 ms·

The Huanan Seafood market paper has been heavily critized. Especially the fact that covid was not found in a single animal sample does make the evidence rather

by zosima 3y ago

The Huanan Seafood market paper has been heavily critized. Especially the fact that covid was not found in a single animal sample does make the evidence rather weak. In addition it seems that the lack of sampling from outside the market and the fact that the market is a busy place in the center of the city where the virus would likely be once it's spreading from person to person , does not really lend support to the conclusions in the paper at all.

pcrh 3y ago
>The Origins of Covid-19 — Why It Matters (and Why It Doesn’t) >More than half of the earliest Covid-19 cases were connected to the Huanan market, and epidemiologic mapping revealed that the concentration of cases was centered there. In January 2020, Chinese officials cleared the market without testing live animals, but positive environmental samples, including those from an animal cage and a hair-and-feather–removal machine, indicated the presence of both SARS-CoV-2 and Covid-susceptible animals.5 Recently released findings included raccoon dog DNA, pointing to a possible SARS-CoV-2 progenitor. https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMp2305081 https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMp2305081
- reuben_scratton 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - toast0 3y ago
    > Humans brought the virus to the market. It's screamingly obvious and always has been. Well of course, the racoon dogs et al all come in via human transport. Testing infrastructure was poor, and maybe it still is. Chinese government interest was not in finding facts, but in taking action to 'solve the problem'. It's hard to find facts when the people with power just want the problem to go away. IMHO, that doesn't weigh in favor of either explaination. The wuhan local government and the chinese national government would have likely taken the same actions regardless of the source, because they're both not very interested in facts. US health authorities pushing on the market theory are just doing their typical behavior of taking what little information is available and pushing it with no nuance. I enjoyed seeing the cdc stickers telling me not to use a mask out in public areas when the cdc was requiring them; the congitive dissonance was so palpable.
    - Atotalnoob 3y ago
      They said not to use them because there was a shortage of PPE. They prioritized healthcare workers to wear masks
  - th0ma5 3y ago
    Saying something is obvious doesn't make it true.
smohare 3y ago
[dead]
BryantD 3y ago
Just to be clear, there weren’t animal samples available for testing. It’s not that they tested a bunch of animals and didn’t find covid. I know that’s what you meant but not everyone is familiar with the paper and it’s important to be meticulous here. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abp8715 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abp8715
- giarc 3y ago
  I don't actually think that is what they meant. If there are no animals to even sample, you don't describe that as "that covid was not found in a single animal sample". No one would phrase it that way.
  - BryantD 3y ago
    Easier on my general well-being to just assume positive intent. (As is obvious from my comment history I don't always succeed there, but I do try.)
    - HWR_14 3y ago
      That you have been able to maintain assuming positive intent with regard to COVID comments for this long is kind of amazing.
lamontcg 3y ago
They found racoon dog DNA, along with other susceptible animals, comingled with SARS-CoV-2 in samples from the market: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/21/science/covid-raccoon-dogs-wuhan-market.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/21/science/covid-raccoon-dog... And the behavior of China behind that whole story looks very much like China tried to cover up the existence of susceptible animals at the market.
- Biorealism 3y ago
  That was written before Jesse Bloom reanalyzed the data and found a negative correlation with raccoon dogs. https://news.yahoo.com/raccoon-dogs-did-not-start-covid-19-new-study-says-165128681.html https://news.yahoo.com/raccoon-dogs-did-not-start-covid-19-n...
  - lamontcg 3y ago
    Raccoon Dog DNA was still found at the market. That was previously denied. I'm not making the argument that the DNA samples indicate that the Raccoon Dogs that the samples were from had SARS-CoV-2. I'm just arguing that previously it had been stated that there were no Raccoon Dogs in the market at all and that has been proven wrong.

by zosima 3y ago

pcrh 3y ago

>The Origins of Covid-19 — Why It Matters (and Why It Doesn’t) >More than half of the earliest Covid-19 cases were connected to the Huanan market, and epidemiologic mapping revealed that the concentration of cases was centered there. In January 2020, Chinese officials cleared the market without testing live animals, but positive environmental samples, including those from an animal cage and a hair-and-feather–removal machine, indicated the presence of both SARS-CoV-2 and Covid-susceptible animals.5 Recently released findings included raccoon dog DNA, pointing to a possible SARS-CoV-2 progenitor. https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMp2305081 https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMp2305081

reuben_scratton 3y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- toast0 3y ago
  > Humans brought the virus to the market. It's screamingly obvious and always has been. Well of course, the racoon dogs et al all come in via human transport. Testing infrastructure was poor, and maybe it still is. Chinese government interest was not in finding facts, but in taking action to 'solve the problem'. It's hard to find facts when the people with power just want the problem to go away. IMHO, that doesn't weigh in favor of either explaination. The wuhan local government and the chinese national government would have likely taken the same actions regardless of the source, because they're both not very interested in facts. US health authorities pushing on the market theory are just doing their typical behavior of taking what little information is available and pushing it with no nuance. I enjoyed seeing the cdc stickers telling me not to use a mask out in public areas when the cdc was requiring them; the congitive dissonance was so palpable.
  - Atotalnoob 3y ago
    They said not to use them because there was a shortage of PPE. They prioritized healthcare workers to wear masks
- th0ma5 3y ago
  Saying something is obvious doesn't make it true.

smohare 3y ago

[dead]

BryantD 3y ago

Just to be clear, there weren’t animal samples available for testing. It’s not that they tested a bunch of animals and didn’t find covid. I know that’s what you meant but not everyone is familiar with the paper and it’s important to be meticulous here. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abp8715 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abp8715

giarc 3y ago
I don't actually think that is what they meant. If there are no animals to even sample, you don't describe that as "that covid was not found in a single animal sample". No one would phrase it that way.
- BryantD 3y ago
  Easier on my general well-being to just assume positive intent. (As is obvious from my comment history I don't always succeed there, but I do try.)
  - HWR_14 3y ago
    That you have been able to maintain assuming positive intent with regard to COVID comments for this long is kind of amazing.

lamontcg 3y ago

They found racoon dog DNA, along with other susceptible animals, comingled with SARS-CoV-2 in samples from the market: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/21/science/covid-raccoon-dogs-wuhan-market.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/21/science/covid-raccoon-dog... And the behavior of China behind that whole story looks very much like China tried to cover up the existence of susceptible animals at the market.

Biorealism 3y ago
That was written before Jesse Bloom reanalyzed the data and found a negative correlation with raccoon dogs. https://news.yahoo.com/raccoon-dogs-did-not-start-covid-19-new-study-says-165128681.html https://news.yahoo.com/raccoon-dogs-did-not-start-covid-19-n...
- lamontcg 3y ago
  Raccoon Dog DNA was still found at the market. That was previously denied. I'm not making the argument that the DNA samples indicate that the Raccoon Dogs that the samples were from had SARS-CoV-2. I'm just arguing that previously it had been stated that there were no Raccoon Dogs in the market at all and that has been proven wrong.