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Early on the article makes a conjecture that others also make which I think is part of why the topic is so hot: “Whether the virus emerged as a result of a lea
by LeonB 3y ago
Early on the article makes a conjecture that others also make which I think is part of why the topic is so hot:
“Whether the virus emerged as a result of a leak from a laboratory or from nature has become one the most controversial problems in science.”
The words “in science” are my problem here: people thinking this is a “scientific” question.
It’s a history question, a political question, and could be made into a forensic question. But science does not ask this kind of question!
Is it possible for a lab to leak a virus? That’s a question science can ask, but it doesn’t answer this one.
So we end up with a belief that scientists can answer this question… but it isn’t a “scientific” question in the first place.
- qup 3y agoPlease, scientists, no need to peer review Wuhan.
- pyuser583 3y agoThere was a peer reviewed paper earlier in the pandemic where scientists used their knowledge of viral anatomy to argue it wasn’t engineered. Subsequent scientific have disagreed. But this isn’t purely historical.
- LanceH 3y agoApologies to those accused of being conspiracy theorists, xenophobic, and spreading misinformation will be going out shortly.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- th0ma5 3y ago[flagged]
- camillomiller 3y agoThey will not, because those accusations came from people who intended to use them to discredit Chinese people in general, or that closely associate the leak with the Chinese way of doing things and so on. These accusation led to racist attacks against Asian people all over the us.
- kcplate 3y agoOk, so the original motivations for some making that claim were suspect. Should that automatically excuse or prevent discussion that better safety protocols should be used or a better “ways of doing things” should be undertaken when handling viruses and pathogens that are capable of killing 7M people? I think it’s a valid topic and important one that should be verboten lest the next time we accidentally kill 14M with carelessness as the cause.
- plagiarist 3y agoIf the people making that claim had been sane, instead of pushing it in the middle of; "it's not deadly, just a flu," "masks do nothing," "maybe a bit of bleach is fine in the lungs," "hydroxychloroquine cures everything," "no, wait, it is horse paste that cures everything," "the vaccine will kill you in X months, guaranteed," and "GREAT RESET," it'd be easier to transition into a serious discussion about studying deadly viruses in labs.
- kcplate 3y agoI honestly don’t see much difference in the level of extremism between everything you listed vs people deciding a specific topic is off limits just because the theory may not be politically correct, or because the alt opinion may have some factual basis.
- plagiarist 3y agoYes, of course, everyone should treat disingenuous propagandists as if they were attempting to have a serious discussion. If anyone objects to that, it is "deciding a topic is off-limits," which is insane. Of course we should let them run their horse paste grift and just patiently repeat over and over, "no, no, studies show it doesn't work. Please wear a mask to reduce spread."
- th0ma5 3y ago[flagged]
- throwaway2990 3y agoScience is in agreement that it is most likely not natural and was engineered. The missing piece is where it originated and majority agree that it most likely originated from the wuhan institute of virology.
- th0ma5 3y ago[flagged]
- throwaway2990 3y agoThe one with Peter Daszak who was hand picked by the CCP for the investigation and money trail back to the CCP??
- spookthesunset 3y ago> but it isn’t a “scientific” question in the first place. ... which is true of the pandemic response in general. "Science" doesn't tell society how to react to something. Science is a process to test hypothesizes--it isn't a book of facts or direct answers on the trade-offs of various mitigation techniques. It can only inform, not dictate.
- fsckboy 3y agoSo, science doesn't have a problem when results of experiments are faked, because science doesn't ask this question, it's a question for politics, forensics, and history? Nice try! Still your move.
- yawnxyz 3y agoThere’s a lab at U of A that accidentally infected their student researcher with cholera, and another case of campylobacter. It’s just sloppy work, but when you’re there for 12 hours a day for 5-6 days a week, you’re bound to get sloppy
- th0ma5 3y ago[flagged]
- pbreit 3y agoHow is science not involved in a major way here? Of course science will continue to play a huge role in the matter.
- mikrotikker 3y agoA few possible reasons. The communist party is sensitive doesn't want it to be known that a Chinese lab leaked a dangerous virus (see also "how does RBMK reactor explode?") The ecohealth alliance that Fauci and Dazack were involved in don't want it widely known that they had a hand in the WIV GoF (that Obama banned stateside) and worked early in the pandemic to obscure their own involvement in it. Trump doesn't want it widely known that his administration contributed $100k to the Ecohealth alliance. Lots of powerful people working to not take responsibility and obfuscate reality.
- baxtr 3y agoI think when they say Science they actually mean: the scientific community.
- toomim 3y agoWhich actually means: a scientific community.
- LeonB 3y agoOne of the allegations is that one or more lab workers were sick with covid in 2019. Their colleagues - the scientific community - cannot through science alone determine if this was true. If it happened then they went to a nearby hospital. To investigate there is possibly a police matter, certainly a health matter, a political matter and many things - but is not answered by waving the magic science wand. And so on. People who claim it’s a science question are shallow or deceitful.
- rich_sasha 3y ago> But science does not ask this kind of question! I disagree, it is a scientific question. Whether we can answer it in isolation of politics and prejudice is the question for me. But if you observe some gravitational waves in a single event, you can correlate it to optical or radio observations, you can try to analyse the signals to match them to existing hypotheses of gravitational waves origination etc. The singularity of the event doesn't make it not science. Same as the emergence of a novel virus. It is just a shame that most of the evidence is subjective and non-scientific. But the question itself is well posed scientific endeavour.
- LeonB 3y agoThe top level question is not a scientific question. In order to investigate it, many many many smaller questions may be asked, some of which are scientific.
- rich_sasha 3y agoI think it's splitting hairs, but even then I disagree. I can't see how the evolution and emergence of a virus is not a question of applied science. That it is commingled with a million political questions, yes it's true. But to me that's a nuisance variable, not fundamentally changing the underlying question.
- switch007 3y agoI interpreted it as “in the scientific community”.
- seydor 3y agowhy not? it is an important scientific question to guide research to mitigate the virus and prevent similar future disasters
- th0ma5 3y ago[flagged]
- computerfriend 3y agoDon't ascribe motive ("cause xenophobic feelings") unless you can back it up.
- th0ma5 3y agoThat's the very point I'm trying to make about this dubious article and all the people posting conspiracy theories here. How can we say they aren't trying to cause xenophobic feelings?
- computerfriend 3y agoIf you can't say either way, don't say it at all.
- th0ma5 3y agoYes exactly ... If you can't prove the lab leak stop writing articles about it, people.
- computerfriend 3y agoDon't accuse people of xenophobia, is my point.
- th0ma5 3y agoSure yes, that is a fair point, but this conversation doesn't ascribe that kind of limitation in the argument, because we're already talking about other motivations. Maybe (probably lol) they were negligent, maybe it was an accident, my point is if we are also trying to get people to think for a moment "or maybe they did it on purpose" then it follows that people are pushing that idea, if false, for xenophobic reasons.
- arisAlexis 3y ago"Is it possible for a lab to leak a virus? " What do you mean? Ofc it's possible and has been done hundreds of times in the past with different viruses and lab security levels.
- stewbrew 3y agoOf course it could be a scientific to estimate the probability that ...
- toomim 3y agoIs the big bang theory science or history, by that logic?
- tim333 3y agoScience very much does ask that kind of question - what is the origin of some thing. With SARS1 it also answered it easily - testing showed if came from palm civets at the market. This time though scientific investigation has been blocked by the politics.