3 ms·

> The result of the study, shown in Chart 3, reveals that most of Belgium’s neighboring countries faced dunkelflaute at the same time as Belgium. https://vito.

by _hypx 3y ago

> The result of the study, shown in Chart 3, reveals that most of Belgium’s neighboring countries faced dunkelflaute at the same time as Belgium. https://vito.be/en/news/dunkelflaute-what-do-when-there-no-wind-or-sun https://vito.be/en/news/dunkelflaute-what-do-when-there-no-w... Neighboring states are not a panacea. All nearby countries will suffer from dunkelflaute at similar times, and they are correlated to each other. Note that no one is suggesting that you cannot rely on neighbors for power. Only that this does not solve the problem of intermittency entirely. Hence an additional system of hydrogen energy storage is necessary. Something every study even admits is basically necessary or at least highly desirable.

natmaka 3y ago
> Neighboring states are not a panacea > this does not solve the problem of intermittency entirely Indeed, hence the title of the referenced study report: "European cooperation could provide more stable wind power". "more stable" isn't "perfectly stable". As its contents shows 'neighbor' is to be understood as 'European-wide'. There is no panacea/magic bullet/nirvana, each complex system uses many partial solutions, and is it true for the existing electrical grid system. Rejecting a partial solution because it doesn't solve the problem is a well-known trick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy Correlations between wind regimes is indeed a key, duly analyzed. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364032115017013 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S136403211... In this study the table 6 (associated to section 3.3.1) offers a re-insuring snapshot. Green hydrogen (among other ways/vectors) is also part of the solution: using electricity overproduced by renewables in order to obtain hydrogen (water electrolysis) then use it as a backup. According to some H-powered turbines aren't mature. This is just another joke: https://www.ge.com/gas-power/future-of-energy/hydrogen-fueled-gas-turbines https://www.ge.com/gas-power/future-of-energy/hydrogen-fuele...
- _hypx 3y ago
  > Indeed, hence the title of the referenced study report: "European cooperation could provide more stable wind power". "more stable" isn't "perfectly stable". > > As its contents shows 'neighbor' is to be understood as 'European-wide'. > > There is no panacea/magic bullet/nirvana, each complex system uses many partial solutions, and is it true for the existing electrical grid system. Rejecting a partial solution because it doesn't solve the problem is a well-known trick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy Except no one has been promoting that argument at all! You’re been tilting at windmills this whole time. The point is that green hydrogen is necessary to fill the gaps between availability of wind and solar. It is not the only solution, but not having it is impossible.
  - natmaka 3y ago
    > no one has been promoting that argument You wrote (above) "Which still doesn't solve the issue of intermittency at all". As the study shows that spreading production units on the continent is a partial solution to intermittency it sounded to me as a nirvana fallacy. Yes, I also think that green hydrogen will be a major component of the solution (along with V2G), and never denied it.
    - _hypx 3y ago
      Now you're playing semantics games. Saying "it does not solve the issue of intermittency at all" does not mean it cannot be a partial solution. The main point is that hydrogen does solve the issue, as a full solution, whereas all the others are just partial solutions.
      - natmaka 3y ago
        IMHO "it does not solve the issue of intermittency at all" is a nirvana fallacy. Reducing the effects of intermittency on production by bumping up the throughput of interconnections (in order to aggregate production on a vast geographical scale) which are otherwise needed (continuity of service and optimization) will be very useful because: - many sectors (industry, agriculture...) need hydrogen, which is nowadays obtained through dirty processes => green hydrogen will be in high demand (not only for grid backup) - storing huge amounts of hydrogen isn't possible right now (progress towards salt caverns storage is slow) and may never be
        _hypx 3y ago
        Wrong. It solves it completely if you wanted to. This is Ludditism, pure and simple. > - storing huge amounts of hydrogen isn't possible right now (progress towards salt caverns storage is slow) and may never be Wrong. We have been doing this for decades. This is a solved problem. You are utterly misinformed here.
        natmaka 3y ago

by _hypx 3y ago

natmaka 3y ago

> Neighboring states are not a panacea > this does not solve the problem of intermittency entirely Indeed, hence the title of the referenced study report: "European cooperation could provide more stable wind power". "more stable" isn't "perfectly stable". As its contents shows 'neighbor' is to be understood as 'European-wide'. There is no panacea/magic bullet/nirvana, each complex system uses many partial solutions, and is it true for the existing electrical grid system. Rejecting a partial solution because it doesn't solve the problem is a well-known trick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy Correlations between wind regimes is indeed a key, duly analyzed. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364032115017013 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S136403211... In this study the table 6 (associated to section 3.3.1) offers a re-insuring snapshot. Green hydrogen (among other ways/vectors) is also part of the solution: using electricity overproduced by renewables in order to obtain hydrogen (water electrolysis) then use it as a backup. According to some H-powered turbines aren't mature. This is just another joke: https://www.ge.com/gas-power/future-of-energy/hydrogen-fueled-gas-turbines https://www.ge.com/gas-power/future-of-energy/hydrogen-fuele...

_hypx 3y ago
> Indeed, hence the title of the referenced study report: "European cooperation could provide more stable wind power". "more stable" isn't "perfectly stable". > > As its contents shows 'neighbor' is to be understood as 'European-wide'. > > There is no panacea/magic bullet/nirvana, each complex system uses many partial solutions, and is it true for the existing electrical grid system. Rejecting a partial solution because it doesn't solve the problem is a well-known trick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy Except no one has been promoting that argument at all! You’re been tilting at windmills this whole time. The point is that green hydrogen is necessary to fill the gaps between availability of wind and solar. It is not the only solution, but not having it is impossible.
- natmaka 3y ago
  > no one has been promoting that argument You wrote (above) "Which still doesn't solve the issue of intermittency at all". As the study shows that spreading production units on the continent is a partial solution to intermittency it sounded to me as a nirvana fallacy. Yes, I also think that green hydrogen will be a major component of the solution (along with V2G), and never denied it.
  - _hypx 3y ago
    Now you're playing semantics games. Saying "it does not solve the issue of intermittency at all" does not mean it cannot be a partial solution. The main point is that hydrogen does solve the issue, as a full solution, whereas all the others are just partial solutions.
    - natmaka 3y ago
      IMHO "it does not solve the issue of intermittency at all" is a nirvana fallacy. Reducing the effects of intermittency on production by bumping up the throughput of interconnections (in order to aggregate production on a vast geographical scale) which are otherwise needed (continuity of service and optimization) will be very useful because: - many sectors (industry, agriculture...) need hydrogen, which is nowadays obtained through dirty processes => green hydrogen will be in high demand (not only for grid backup) - storing huge amounts of hydrogen isn't possible right now (progress towards salt caverns storage is slow) and may never be
      - _hypx 3y ago
        Wrong. It solves it completely if you wanted to. This is Ludditism, pure and simple. > - storing huge amounts of hydrogen isn't possible right now (progress towards salt caverns storage is slow) and may never be Wrong. We have been doing this for decades. This is a solved problem. You are utterly misinformed here.
        natmaka 3y ago