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I had a different take on his writings than yours. Rather than thinking his solution was bad, he encouraged me to question why we “spend our days improving huma

by lumb63 3y ago

I had a different take on his writings than yours. Rather than thinking his solution was bad, he encouraged me to question why we “spend our days improving humanity”. What does “improving humanity” even mean? What’s the metric we are optimizing for? Are we, humanity, any happier than we were when we were hunter-gatherer tribes? I don’t think so - we’ve just found new metrics to focus on and to be disappointed in ourselves in. His writing encouraged me to consider that we are evolutionarily ill-suited for our current situation. We have resources far in excess of our needs, and yet we struggle. We find new issues to focus on, new problems, new fights, new causes. Our desire to “improve humanity” will never end, because it cannot end. When it does, we will find something new to take its place. Maybe our purpose in life is to find food to survive. It is the task our ancestors evolved to do for millions and millions of years. It is our inheritance, in that way.

bbor 3y ago
> Are we, humanity, any happier than we were when we were hunter-gatherer tribes? I don’t think so - we’ve just found new metrics to focus on and to be disappointed in ourselves in. This seems crazy to me, leaning heavily on the proof that you yourself obviously are not choosing that life when you easily could. It’s possible in the same way that anything is possible, but cmon - the world is objectively less violent, sick, and ignorant. Sure we might be sad because the economy sucks, but I’d rather be sad than, ya know, fighting for my life… A basic rundown from GPT expresses why I think this. Curious to hear where you disagree! “Sure, let's consider these factors: 1. *Pleasure (Epicurus)*: Likely harder in a tribal society. Threats of violence and disease may significantly limit opportunities for pleasure and heighten experiences of pain. 2. *Virtuous Life (Aristotle)*: Potentially harder in a tribal society due to the pressures of survival, which might necessitate actions that conflict with virtues like honesty and generosity. 3. *Self-Actualization (Maslow)*: Much harder in a tribal society. The constant threats of violence and disease could make fulfilling basic needs a priority, leaving little room for self-actualization. 4. *Moderation (Confucius)*: Easier in a tribal society, as the threat of violence or disease could necessitate moderation and caution to ensure survival. 5. *Freedom (Sartre)*: Likely easier in modern society. The risks of violence and disease in tribal societies may limit the opportunity for individual freedom and choice. 6. *Inner Peace (Buddha)*: Likely harder in tribal societies, where the constant threat of violence and disease might disrupt efforts towards finding inner peace. 7. *Authenticity (Heidegger)*: Likely harder in a tribal society, where survival concerns might pressure individuals to adopt roles for the group's benefit rather than personal authenticity. 8. *Community (Marx)*: Likely easier in tribal societies, as the constant threats would necessitate cooperation and mutual support, fostering a strong sense of community. 9. *Mindfulness (Thich Nhat Hanh)*: Likely harder in a tribal society, where the constant threats could make it difficult to focus on the present moment and achieve mindfulness. 10. *Acceptance (Stoics)*: Equal in both societies; acceptance is about personal perspective and can be challenging in any circumstance, including violence or disease. 11. *Physical Well-being (Plato)*: Much harder in a tribal society due to a higher risk of injury from violence, more limited medical knowledge and treatment, and potential prevalence of disease. 12. *Purpose (Nietzsche)*: Likely harder in a tribal society, where survival threats might narrow the scope of one's purpose to primarily physical survival. 13. *Knowledge (Socrates)*: Easier in modern society due to broader access to information, whereas tribal societies may lack the resources to gain knowledge beyond immediate survival needs. 14. *Creativity (Fromm)*: Harder in a tribal society where threats of violence and disease might limit the time, resources, and mental energy available for creative pursuits. 15. *Love (Fromm)*: Possibly harder in tribal societies, where the constant threats could overshadow relationships and the expression of love.”
- Eisenstein 3y ago
  > This seems crazy to me, leaning heavily on the proof that you yourself obviously are not choosing that life when you easily could. Can someone do this? Find a place you can live and hunt for free that isn't incredibly difficult to survive in because of its inhospitable climate or lack of resources.
  - bbor 3y ago
    I mean, Africa and LA seem like strong contenders. Most non-rich nations, really. One could say “but I want somewhere safer” but obviously that would be a little bit self-defeating, ideology-wise. “For free” is also pretty much impossible, especially if you factor in travel, but my intuition tells me that a very modest American or European savings could buy access to land somewhere. Especially if you sold all your possessions, or used credit without intending to pay it back. Re: resources… I mean that’s kinda the deal? Living immersed in nature without society’s support doesn’t mean relaxing in Eden in the vast vast majority of places, it means fighting like hell. Imo.
    - virgildotcodes 3y ago
      I mean, humans are a social species, and tribal societies that live off the land have a chain of countless generations passing down wisdom and customs to train their people on how to effectively survive in their respective environments, and still they rely on their community to effectively do so. To take a single (or even a couple) of fully formed adults without any of that lifelong education and training, who are accustomed to a wholly different environment and way of life, and to drop them into a survival situation without that surrounding community to rely on, seems like an obvious recipe for failure. Not that I’m arguing that tribal life is actually desirable over a modern western lifestyle.
      - bbor 3y ago
        I agree, well put! Overall I’m arguing against primitivism but Ted’d particular brand of it (schizophrenic complete isolation) is even easier to find problems with as a political or social message. The man needed health care, not a shack in the woods…
guerrilla 3y ago
The way you put it sounds like a part of the foundational thesis of Buddhism.
cambaceres 3y ago
What is stopping you from moving out in the wilderness if you think it's the best way to get truly happy?
- beebeepka 3y ago
  Doesn't make sense in regards to what lumb63 said. They're talking about society as a whole

by lumb63 3y ago

bbor 3y ago

> Are we, humanity, any happier than we were when we were hunter-gatherer tribes? I don’t think so - we’ve just found new metrics to focus on and to be disappointed in ourselves in. This seems crazy to me, leaning heavily on the proof that you yourself obviously are not choosing that life when you easily could. It’s possible in the same way that anything is possible, but cmon - the world is objectively less violent, sick, and ignorant. Sure we might be sad because the economy sucks, but I’d rather be sad than, ya know, fighting for my life… A basic rundown from GPT expresses why I think this. Curious to hear where you disagree! “Sure, let's consider these factors: 1. *Pleasure (Epicurus)*: Likely harder in a tribal society. Threats of violence and disease may significantly limit opportunities for pleasure and heighten experiences of pain. 2. *Virtuous Life (Aristotle)*: Potentially harder in a tribal society due to the pressures of survival, which might necessitate actions that conflict with virtues like honesty and generosity. 3. *Self-Actualization (Maslow)*: Much harder in a tribal society. The constant threats of violence and disease could make fulfilling basic needs a priority, leaving little room for self-actualization. 4. *Moderation (Confucius)*: Easier in a tribal society, as the threat of violence or disease could necessitate moderation and caution to ensure survival. 5. *Freedom (Sartre)*: Likely easier in modern society. The risks of violence and disease in tribal societies may limit the opportunity for individual freedom and choice. 6. *Inner Peace (Buddha)*: Likely harder in tribal societies, where the constant threat of violence and disease might disrupt efforts towards finding inner peace. 7. *Authenticity (Heidegger)*: Likely harder in a tribal society, where survival concerns might pressure individuals to adopt roles for the group's benefit rather than personal authenticity. 8. *Community (Marx)*: Likely easier in tribal societies, as the constant threats would necessitate cooperation and mutual support, fostering a strong sense of community. 9. *Mindfulness (Thich Nhat Hanh)*: Likely harder in a tribal society, where the constant threats could make it difficult to focus on the present moment and achieve mindfulness. 10. *Acceptance (Stoics)*: Equal in both societies; acceptance is about personal perspective and can be challenging in any circumstance, including violence or disease. 11. *Physical Well-being (Plato)*: Much harder in a tribal society due to a higher risk of injury from violence, more limited medical knowledge and treatment, and potential prevalence of disease. 12. *Purpose (Nietzsche)*: Likely harder in a tribal society, where survival threats might narrow the scope of one's purpose to primarily physical survival. 13. *Knowledge (Socrates)*: Easier in modern society due to broader access to information, whereas tribal societies may lack the resources to gain knowledge beyond immediate survival needs. 14. *Creativity (Fromm)*: Harder in a tribal society where threats of violence and disease might limit the time, resources, and mental energy available for creative pursuits. 15. *Love (Fromm)*: Possibly harder in tribal societies, where the constant threats could overshadow relationships and the expression of love.”

Eisenstein 3y ago
> This seems crazy to me, leaning heavily on the proof that you yourself obviously are not choosing that life when you easily could. Can someone do this? Find a place you can live and hunt for free that isn't incredibly difficult to survive in because of its inhospitable climate or lack of resources.
- bbor 3y ago
  I mean, Africa and LA seem like strong contenders. Most non-rich nations, really. One could say “but I want somewhere safer” but obviously that would be a little bit self-defeating, ideology-wise. “For free” is also pretty much impossible, especially if you factor in travel, but my intuition tells me that a very modest American or European savings could buy access to land somewhere. Especially if you sold all your possessions, or used credit without intending to pay it back. Re: resources… I mean that’s kinda the deal? Living immersed in nature without society’s support doesn’t mean relaxing in Eden in the vast vast majority of places, it means fighting like hell. Imo.
  - virgildotcodes 3y ago
    I mean, humans are a social species, and tribal societies that live off the land have a chain of countless generations passing down wisdom and customs to train their people on how to effectively survive in their respective environments, and still they rely on their community to effectively do so. To take a single (or even a couple) of fully formed adults without any of that lifelong education and training, who are accustomed to a wholly different environment and way of life, and to drop them into a survival situation without that surrounding community to rely on, seems like an obvious recipe for failure. Not that I’m arguing that tribal life is actually desirable over a modern western lifestyle.
    - bbor 3y ago
      I agree, well put! Overall I’m arguing against primitivism but Ted’d particular brand of it (schizophrenic complete isolation) is even easier to find problems with as a political or social message. The man needed health care, not a shack in the woods…

guerrilla 3y ago

The way you put it sounds like a part of the foundational thesis of Buddhism.

cambaceres 3y ago

What is stopping you from moving out in the wilderness if you think it's the best way to get truly happy?

beebeepka 3y ago
Doesn't make sense in regards to what lumb63 said. They're talking about society as a whole