4 ms·

> I think you’ll find Mercedes just don’t publish anything, where as Tesla pretty much develop in the open. Regardless of the sausage, some people just don’t li

> I think you’ll find Mercedes just don’t publish anything, where as Tesla pretty much develop in the open. Regardless of the sausage, some people just don’t like knowing how it’s made. Can you make this statement with a straight face? That a company develops machines that can kill you any second, up in the open, and have untrained people expose general public to those tests? How would you feel if I’d be developing magical drug, that cures cancer just by drinking it, with no side effects, by just throwing each iteration into your municipal water supply and put it in your kids milk?

onethought 3y ago
But they don’t. People ask to opt in to it. And that is exactly how human trials work in the medical test. So your analogy is apt. Are you saying Mercedes process is better? Where they haven’t done extensive testing and have a brand new drug that has actually never been properly tested in the wild? I’m confused what your point is.
- justapassenger 3y ago
  Do you know you’re not the only user of the road? And there’s tons of videos, with predictable abuse, where people allow cars to do illegal/dangerous things to see “if it’ll figure it out”? If Tesla influencer his me with his car, I didn’t consent to that. Or when erratic behavior (like FSD driving against the traffic, which you have tons of videos of) will cause others to crash - they didn’t consent to that. Tesla has full “test in prod” approach to their FSD. You can see that from erratic regressions and hot fixes.
  - onethought 3y ago
    But we already let learner drivers try things out on the road, and their supervisors can’t even take control. Human drivers crash and make mistakes too… where is the uproar for allowing them to drive? Where as Tesla only allows fully licensed drivers and until recently only pretty good ones at that. I think you’re just regurgitating the standard anti-Tesla talking points… and avoided the questions on the fact Mercedes hasn’t tested this in actual streets and has just rolled it out and while it’s admitting liability isn’t that just as bad as what Tesla is doing? Worse in fact as there no bar for getting this feature, and it doesn’t get shut off for misuse (which FSD beta does). Given all the approaches (with a hope of working) are using AI - how do you get the data to train the AI? This isn’t a Tesla problem, this is an AI training problem. Tesla already makes heavy use of synthetic data, and using real world human drivers to collect training material. How would you do it?
    - TheAlchemist 3y ago
      I don't know the US, but in Europe supervisors definitely can take control - at least for acceleration / breaking. I also think Tesla's approach is the most efficient one, however I do have a problem with their advertising, which is misleading to say the least. I think we kind of all agree it's a beta version, and they 'develop it in the open'. But it's been at least 5 years they say it's pretty much FSD - their first video where they say 'the driver is there only for legal reasons' was in 2016 ! Same goes for accidents data - they don't publish raw data, that would allow some fair comparisons. Instead they publish bullshit charts which are extremely biased.
      - kwhitefoot 3y ago
        When I took my sons out to practice driving I most certainly could not take control.
      - onethought 3y ago
        But no one publishes detailed data. Every time I hear anti Tesla/Elon chatter, Tesla is always being held to a higher standard than other companies. FSD naming, nvidia call their Chauffeur, which is way more misleading to me. You have Blue Cruise which means nothing. Audi don’t call theirs anything and just talk about the features which I think is your preference. I don’t believe anyone has bought a Tesla not understanding exactly what FSD does and don’t do, are people being misled?
        TheAlchemist 3y ago
        Uh, you are joking here right ? Tesla uses extremely deceiving marketing (and same goes for investor relations) regarding a lot of their products lately - FSD being one of them. It's called Full Self Driving... Is that misleading ? How do you interpret this name ? Are people being misled ? I don't know. But, last year California did pass a law explicitly aimed at Tesla bullshit. Again, I do think, from society perspective, it's rational thing to do - to 'test in the open' - especially that there are not that much accidents (although the numbers are much worse that Tesla would like people to believe - when you compare apples to apples, there are more accidents per mile with Tesla FSD than with human drivers). What bothers me is their aggressive and misleading marketing, and the fact that they get away with something other companies do not.

onethought 3y ago

But they don’t. People ask to opt in to it. And that is exactly how human trials work in the medical test. So your analogy is apt. Are you saying Mercedes process is better? Where they haven’t done extensive testing and have a brand new drug that has actually never been properly tested in the wild? I’m confused what your point is.

justapassenger 3y ago
Do you know you’re not the only user of the road? And there’s tons of videos, with predictable abuse, where people allow cars to do illegal/dangerous things to see “if it’ll figure it out”? If Tesla influencer his me with his car, I didn’t consent to that. Or when erratic behavior (like FSD driving against the traffic, which you have tons of videos of) will cause others to crash - they didn’t consent to that. Tesla has full “test in prod” approach to their FSD. You can see that from erratic regressions and hot fixes.
- onethought 3y ago
  But we already let learner drivers try things out on the road, and their supervisors can’t even take control. Human drivers crash and make mistakes too… where is the uproar for allowing them to drive? Where as Tesla only allows fully licensed drivers and until recently only pretty good ones at that. I think you’re just regurgitating the standard anti-Tesla talking points… and avoided the questions on the fact Mercedes hasn’t tested this in actual streets and has just rolled it out and while it’s admitting liability isn’t that just as bad as what Tesla is doing? Worse in fact as there no bar for getting this feature, and it doesn’t get shut off for misuse (which FSD beta does). Given all the approaches (with a hope of working) are using AI - how do you get the data to train the AI? This isn’t a Tesla problem, this is an AI training problem. Tesla already makes heavy use of synthetic data, and using real world human drivers to collect training material. How would you do it?
  - TheAlchemist 3y ago
    I don't know the US, but in Europe supervisors definitely can take control - at least for acceleration / breaking. I also think Tesla's approach is the most efficient one, however I do have a problem with their advertising, which is misleading to say the least. I think we kind of all agree it's a beta version, and they 'develop it in the open'. But it's been at least 5 years they say it's pretty much FSD - their first video where they say 'the driver is there only for legal reasons' was in 2016 ! Same goes for accidents data - they don't publish raw data, that would allow some fair comparisons. Instead they publish bullshit charts which are extremely biased.
    - kwhitefoot 3y ago
      When I took my sons out to practice driving I most certainly could not take control.
    - onethought 3y ago
      But no one publishes detailed data. Every time I hear anti Tesla/Elon chatter, Tesla is always being held to a higher standard than other companies. FSD naming, nvidia call their Chauffeur, which is way more misleading to me. You have Blue Cruise which means nothing. Audi don’t call theirs anything and just talk about the features which I think is your preference. I don’t believe anyone has bought a Tesla not understanding exactly what FSD does and don’t do, are people being misled?
      - TheAlchemist 3y ago
        Uh, you are joking here right ? Tesla uses extremely deceiving marketing (and same goes for investor relations) regarding a lot of their products lately - FSD being one of them. It's called Full Self Driving... Is that misleading ? How do you interpret this name ? Are people being misled ? I don't know. But, last year California did pass a law explicitly aimed at Tesla bullshit. Again, I do think, from society perspective, it's rational thing to do - to 'test in the open' - especially that there are not that much accidents (although the numbers are much worse that Tesla would like people to believe - when you compare apples to apples, there are more accidents per mile with Tesla FSD than with human drivers). What bothers me is their aggressive and misleading marketing, and the fact that they get away with something other companies do not.