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A huge part of of why London could pull it off is the exceptional state of the Underground. It’s not hard to wean off cars when the alternative is a clean, fast

A huge part of of why London could pull it off is the exceptional state of the Underground. It’s not hard to wean off cars when the alternative is a clean, fast, modern train a short walk away. NYC is going to have an uphill battle getting the MTA to anywhere near that level, and the MTA itself is already leagues ahead of any other transit system in the US. I would love to see London-tier transit in the United States, but until our bureaucracies can solve about a dozen or so hard problems, plans like this will remain all stick, no carrot.

whack 3y ago
I've taken both the Underground and the MTA and you're overstating the difference. Aesthetically, the Underground is far better, no question. But most commuters are focused on functionality. And functionally the MTA is just as good, if not better. The trains run extremely frequently - every few minutes during the day on weekdays. The parallel local-express tracks give the MTA a big speed advantage. And the inside of the MTA trains are extremely spacious compared to the Underground.
- Reason077 3y ago
  > ”MTA trains are extremely spacious compared to the Underground” Depends what line you’re talking about. Deep tube lines are indeed pretty small due to the narrow tubes they run in. But the sub-surface lines (District, Circle, Metropolitan, etc) are comparable to NYC subway dimensions. And have you tried our new 200m long Elizabeth line trains?
- muh_gradle 3y ago
  I live in NYC, have taken the tube when I lived in London. I've also lived in other cities like Seoul, Tokyo with superior public transportation. The "aesthetics" aspect that you describe is an incredible understatement. The nearest MTA station is covered in feces and used syringes and I'm not exaggerating. Trains are constantly late. Apparently building a barrier and a gate on the platform is a 10 year, trillion dollar project. I have to put my back to a wall because I'm worried some crazy person will push me onto the track. Yeah, I wouldn't concur with the statement on MTA being so functional.
  - nimbleplum40 3y ago
    Huh, what station? I also live in NYC but haven’t seen any subway stations nearly that bad. Grimy, definitely. But never what you’re describing.
  - rafram 3y ago
    I have literally never seen a subway station “covered in feces and used syringes” - or even one single syringe in a station - in my life. How many times have you actually ridden the subway?
    - muh_gradle 3y ago
      Have you ever visited the 155th station? Maybe you should actually try living in the city before talking. Or maybe Penn station which is next to the biggest methadone clinic in the city. If you think that I'm saying the station is literally covered from floor to ceiling with feces and syringes, then no that's not what I'm saying. But maybe you're just so comfortable with the griminess that it doesn't bother you.
      - rafram 3y ago
        I live in New York City, but no, I haven’t spent time in a random local station near Sugar Hill. Not sure why that would invalidate the rest of my experience. Penn Station is fine. Methadone is taken orally (as a drink) to treat addiction and no syringes are involved, so the methadone clinic wouldn’t have anything to do with syringes in the station.
        spamtarget 3y ago
        No matter where you live, the subway elevators always pull double duty as restrooms, and I've never stepped into one without feeling that pungent scent of urine. But hey, you're absolutely right, the subway is just peachy.
        muh_gradle 3y ago
        > Penn Station is fine. Yeah you either don't live in NYC, or you just have a lower standard for basic hygiene. But let's agree to disagree.
steveBK123 3y ago
Yup, for example, I live in Brooklyn .. an area with multi-million dollar apartments. And yet, my nearest subway station has had 2 murders in the last 2 years. And I am talking about weekday, 6~8pm timeslot on train or platform. One was a shooting the other was a stabbing. Were they drug/crime related & therefore targeted, so "well don't worry if you aren't a drug dealer". Sure, maybe! But also, shootings frequently have bystanders hit, as for example the outdoor cafe 2 blocks from said subway did during our covid crime spike. Does it speak to a general level of violent crime happening in/near subways - obviously yes. Do I think the city is a mad max chaotic wasteland of death? No. Do I want my subway station that I / my wife transit through a dozen times a week to have less murder? Yes. NYC urbanists have an incredible level of Stockholm Syndrome with this city and cannot let their guard down to admit there are problems in need of solving that are not entirely "from the left".

whack 3y ago

I've taken both the Underground and the MTA and you're overstating the difference. Aesthetically, the Underground is far better, no question. But most commuters are focused on functionality. And functionally the MTA is just as good, if not better. The trains run extremely frequently - every few minutes during the day on weekdays. The parallel local-express tracks give the MTA a big speed advantage. And the inside of the MTA trains are extremely spacious compared to the Underground.

Reason077 3y ago
> ”MTA trains are extremely spacious compared to the Underground” Depends what line you’re talking about. Deep tube lines are indeed pretty small due to the narrow tubes they run in. But the sub-surface lines (District, Circle, Metropolitan, etc) are comparable to NYC subway dimensions. And have you tried our new 200m long Elizabeth line trains?
muh_gradle 3y ago
I live in NYC, have taken the tube when I lived in London. I've also lived in other cities like Seoul, Tokyo with superior public transportation. The "aesthetics" aspect that you describe is an incredible understatement. The nearest MTA station is covered in feces and used syringes and I'm not exaggerating. Trains are constantly late. Apparently building a barrier and a gate on the platform is a 10 year, trillion dollar project. I have to put my back to a wall because I'm worried some crazy person will push me onto the track. Yeah, I wouldn't concur with the statement on MTA being so functional.
- nimbleplum40 3y ago
  Huh, what station? I also live in NYC but haven’t seen any subway stations nearly that bad. Grimy, definitely. But never what you’re describing.
- rafram 3y ago
  I have literally never seen a subway station “covered in feces and used syringes” - or even one single syringe in a station - in my life. How many times have you actually ridden the subway?
  - muh_gradle 3y ago
    Have you ever visited the 155th station? Maybe you should actually try living in the city before talking. Or maybe Penn station which is next to the biggest methadone clinic in the city. If you think that I'm saying the station is literally covered from floor to ceiling with feces and syringes, then no that's not what I'm saying. But maybe you're just so comfortable with the griminess that it doesn't bother you.
    - rafram 3y ago
      I live in New York City, but no, I haven’t spent time in a random local station near Sugar Hill. Not sure why that would invalidate the rest of my experience. Penn Station is fine. Methadone is taken orally (as a drink) to treat addiction and no syringes are involved, so the methadone clinic wouldn’t have anything to do with syringes in the station.
      - spamtarget 3y ago
        No matter where you live, the subway elevators always pull double duty as restrooms, and I've never stepped into one without feeling that pungent scent of urine. But hey, you're absolutely right, the subway is just peachy.
      - muh_gradle 3y ago
        > Penn Station is fine. Yeah you either don't live in NYC, or you just have a lower standard for basic hygiene. But let's agree to disagree.

steveBK123 3y ago

Yup, for example, I live in Brooklyn .. an area with multi-million dollar apartments. And yet, my nearest subway station has had 2 murders in the last 2 years. And I am talking about weekday, 6~8pm timeslot on train or platform. One was a shooting the other was a stabbing. Were they drug/crime related & therefore targeted, so "well don't worry if you aren't a drug dealer". Sure, maybe! But also, shootings frequently have bystanders hit, as for example the outdoor cafe 2 blocks from said subway did during our covid crime spike. Does it speak to a general level of violent crime happening in/near subways - obviously yes. Do I think the city is a mad max chaotic wasteland of death? No. Do I want my subway station that I / my wife transit through a dozen times a week to have less murder? Yes. NYC urbanists have an incredible level of Stockholm Syndrome with this city and cannot let their guard down to admit there are problems in need of solving that are not entirely "from the left".