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I’m pretty sure the reason why people are against the image being used is that <insert field here> (image processing in this case) used to be a male dominated f

I’m pretty sure the reason why people are against the image being used is that <insert field here> (image processing in this case) used to be a male dominated field, and the use of an arguably contextually misogynistic image could make female researchers in the field uncomfortable and/or less included, etc. I really don’t think setting an example for children has anything to do with it.

dahart 3y ago
Your summary is accurate, I agree with it, though the question of whether Playboy is “arguably” contextually misogynistic isn’t really even up for debate, it’s a well known fact that lots of women (and men) have repeatedly pointed out for decades. The issue with Lena is more than the potential that it could make female researchers uncomfortable, it actually did, and some of them were kind enough to let people know, and ask politely to consider more carefully what that makes the field of research look like to outsiders, and whether it is truly inclusive for women if we demand the right to keep using a pinup in research and act incredulous if anyone doesn’t like it. That makes us seem immature. I don’t know what you mean by “children” or what you’re reacting to exactly, since I didn’t make any specific claims about children, but where is the line? Do you consider female high school students or college students to be children? (I’m old enough that I do.) The movement to stop using Lena is about having the entire field of computer vision set a better example all around, for young people and adults, for men and women. There is a particular emphasis on what using Lena in research looks like to high school and college women because we have a history of accidentally excluding women from tech, and high school & college are the times when kids really decide what they want to do, right?
- pfannkuchen 3y ago
  > I don’t know what you mean by “children” or what you’re reacting to exactly, since I didn’t make any specific claims about children I’m reacting to this: “Imagine if female teachers put up Chippendale’s posters in the classroom, or nurses put them in the hospital, and argued that anyone who complained was just being PC police and unreasonably sensitive” I don’t have a strong position on Lena elimination, I just think that comparing the situation to teachers or nurses hanging up an explicit or sex-related poster is ridiculous. I brought up children because I think the reason why teachers or nurses hanging up posters like that is obviously offensive is that those are professions which have a large and direct day to day exposure in-person to children. Image processing researchers do not share this trait, so the comparison is invalid IMO. If you said the same about, say, mechanics or factory workers, professions without direct exposure to children, I don’t think it would be as obviously offensive. > we demand the right to keep using a pinup in research It isn’t itself a pinup, it looks like a still from a regular film and the image itself isn’t explicit at all. I think calling it a “pinup in research” is an exaggeration. The fact that it is actually from Playboy is sort of an in-joke in the field, since I don’t think anyone naively looking at the image would think that (I certainly didn’t when I first saw it). > we have a history of accidentally excluding women from tech Do you honestly believe that things like Lena have a significant effect here? I think women’s perception of tech being a place for men is primarily influenced by it being, in fact, full of men. Spending time on matters like this is counterproductive because it makes people working to improve equality in the field seem petty. > Do you consider female… college students to be children? Absolutely not, and I find the idea insulting to female college students. Women having children at that age is accepted in our society, so I have no idea how they could themselves be considered children without seriously altering the functional definition of the word child.
  - dahart 3y ago
    > Do you honestly believe that things like Lena have a significant effect here? […] I think calling it a “pinup in research” is an exaggeration. Yes, and not because I suspect it, it’s because I happen to have seen women testifying to this fact. Your language for multiple comments continues to insist and insist on downplaying the issue and disregarding the stated wishes of people who are sincerely pointing out a legitimate problem, and the stated reasons that professional journals like Nature have put on record. There are no longer any technical reasons to use Lena in publications, none. And by and large, it is done and over with, nobody uses it anymore. You can nit-pick and argue over the degree of the problem all you want, and rather than proving that people are exaggerating or being unreasonable, whinging about it now mostly makes it seem like you want to preserve and defend this mildly misogyinist symbol & behavior. Insisting that it’s not a problem, when you’re part of the in-group, is exactly how cultural bias persists. In 1984 in the U.S., almost 40% of CS degrees went to women, after growing year over year for decades. Since then the number dropped to below 20%. Meanwhile in other countries, like India, for example, there have been years where it was over 50%. We have hard evidence that we are somehow limiting equal opportunity and making CS unappealing to women. It’s a fact of history that Lena was and is considered by many people to demonstrate the attitudes that are pushing women out of CS. So what do you want to do about that? If you don’t believe it, then offer a plausible and compelling alternative to what the problem is and how to fix it. > I find the idea insulting to female college students. […] I have no idea how they could be themselves considered children without seriously altering the functional definition of the word child. “The legal definition of child generally refers to a minor, otherwise known as a person younger than the age of majority.” (Age of majority is 18 years in the U.S. - typically a freshman in college.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child How about instead of arguing about trivia, we just agree to listen to and respect people’s wishes, especially when outsiders point out that the in-joke isn’t particularly clever or tasteful and makes us look like Beavis and Butthead?

dahart 3y ago

Your summary is accurate, I agree with it, though the question of whether Playboy is “arguably” contextually misogynistic isn’t really even up for debate, it’s a well known fact that lots of women (and men) have repeatedly pointed out for decades. The issue with Lena is more than the potential that it could make female researchers uncomfortable, it actually did, and some of them were kind enough to let people know, and ask politely to consider more carefully what that makes the field of research look like to outsiders, and whether it is truly inclusive for women if we demand the right to keep using a pinup in research and act incredulous if anyone doesn’t like it. That makes us seem immature. I don’t know what you mean by “children” or what you’re reacting to exactly, since I didn’t make any specific claims about children, but where is the line? Do you consider female high school students or college students to be children? (I’m old enough that I do.) The movement to stop using Lena is about having the entire field of computer vision set a better example all around, for young people and adults, for men and women. There is a particular emphasis on what using Lena in research looks like to high school and college women because we have a history of accidentally excluding women from tech, and high school & college are the times when kids really decide what they want to do, right?

pfannkuchen 3y ago
> I don’t know what you mean by “children” or what you’re reacting to exactly, since I didn’t make any specific claims about children I’m reacting to this: “Imagine if female teachers put up Chippendale’s posters in the classroom, or nurses put them in the hospital, and argued that anyone who complained was just being PC police and unreasonably sensitive” I don’t have a strong position on Lena elimination, I just think that comparing the situation to teachers or nurses hanging up an explicit or sex-related poster is ridiculous. I brought up children because I think the reason why teachers or nurses hanging up posters like that is obviously offensive is that those are professions which have a large and direct day to day exposure in-person to children. Image processing researchers do not share this trait, so the comparison is invalid IMO. If you said the same about, say, mechanics or factory workers, professions without direct exposure to children, I don’t think it would be as obviously offensive. > we demand the right to keep using a pinup in research It isn’t itself a pinup, it looks like a still from a regular film and the image itself isn’t explicit at all. I think calling it a “pinup in research” is an exaggeration. The fact that it is actually from Playboy is sort of an in-joke in the field, since I don’t think anyone naively looking at the image would think that (I certainly didn’t when I first saw it). > we have a history of accidentally excluding women from tech Do you honestly believe that things like Lena have a significant effect here? I think women’s perception of tech being a place for men is primarily influenced by it being, in fact, full of men. Spending time on matters like this is counterproductive because it makes people working to improve equality in the field seem petty. > Do you consider female… college students to be children? Absolutely not, and I find the idea insulting to female college students. Women having children at that age is accepted in our society, so I have no idea how they could themselves be considered children without seriously altering the functional definition of the word child.
- dahart 3y ago
  > Do you honestly believe that things like Lena have a significant effect here? […] I think calling it a “pinup in research” is an exaggeration. Yes, and not because I suspect it, it’s because I happen to have seen women testifying to this fact. Your language for multiple comments continues to insist and insist on downplaying the issue and disregarding the stated wishes of people who are sincerely pointing out a legitimate problem, and the stated reasons that professional journals like Nature have put on record. There are no longer any technical reasons to use Lena in publications, none. And by and large, it is done and over with, nobody uses it anymore. You can nit-pick and argue over the degree of the problem all you want, and rather than proving that people are exaggerating or being unreasonable, whinging about it now mostly makes it seem like you want to preserve and defend this mildly misogyinist symbol & behavior. Insisting that it’s not a problem, when you’re part of the in-group, is exactly how cultural bias persists. In 1984 in the U.S., almost 40% of CS degrees went to women, after growing year over year for decades. Since then the number dropped to below 20%. Meanwhile in other countries, like India, for example, there have been years where it was over 50%. We have hard evidence that we are somehow limiting equal opportunity and making CS unappealing to women. It’s a fact of history that Lena was and is considered by many people to demonstrate the attitudes that are pushing women out of CS. So what do you want to do about that? If you don’t believe it, then offer a plausible and compelling alternative to what the problem is and how to fix it. > I find the idea insulting to female college students. […] I have no idea how they could be themselves considered children without seriously altering the functional definition of the word child. “The legal definition of child generally refers to a minor, otherwise known as a person younger than the age of majority.” (Age of majority is 18 years in the U.S. - typically a freshman in college.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child How about instead of arguing about trivia, we just agree to listen to and respect people’s wishes, especially when outsiders point out that the in-joke isn’t particularly clever or tasteful and makes us look like Beavis and Butthead?