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For starters: - not eroding and breaking international law by invading Iraq, setting a precedent cited by Putin - not signing the Den Hague invasion act - no

For starters: - not eroding and breaking international law by invading Iraq, setting a precedent cited by Putin - not signing the Den Hague invasion act - not getting involved in various "revolutions" in the east, like Ukraine - not targeting all russian people with sanctions after 2014, but only those in charge You know, in general leading by good example. If we want a international law forbidding countries to invade each other - it only works if the law applies to everyone. This I would consider smart politics.

CamperBob2 3y ago
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- whatsu 3y ago
  I don't think it is comparable, the invasion of Iraq was way worse.
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    > I don't think it is comparable, the invasion of Iraq was way worse. You think the invasion of Iraq was worse than the rape and torture of civilians, including women and children? And the summary execution of all civilians aged 16 and above?. Are you okay? or just unaware of whats going on in Ukraine?.
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      Well, my original point was the legal precedent. Invading another country without the need for self defense. (Or were there any indications, that Iraq was about to attack the US at all?) So at no point I said it is the same. But if you want actual official numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War 200 000 dead Iraq civilians vs 9 000 in Ukraine And regarding torture and rape, you might have missed Abu Ghraib and similar institutions? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_priso...
      - _kbh_ 3y ago
        > Well, my original point was the legal precedent. Invading another country without the need for self defense. (Or were there any indications, that Iraq was about to attack the US at all?) So at no point I said it is the same. This legal precedent stuff is rubbish and just more justification of Russians brutal crimes. Not to mention that Russia was doing this brutal razing and raping of civilian centres far before the US invaded Iraq. > And regarding torture and rape, you might have missed Abu Ghraib and similar institutions? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_priso https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_priso... I didn't but I missed the part where they involved children.
        hutzlibu 3y ago
        "I didn't but I missed the part where they involved children." There certainly were also childs (<18) tortured in Iraq. Maybe I feel like digging up some sources. But right at hand I have boys as sexslaves from afghanistan institutions set up, payed and defended by US forces (and those US soldiers who stood up against it, got problems) https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-to... "This legal precedent stuff is rubbish and just more justification of Russians brutal crimes." And what exactly is rubbish about it? Or do you think international law can (should) get established for everyone minus US? The problem right now is exactly that russia is NOT isolated enough. They still can trade quite unrestricted. IF there would be a believable international law, the sanctions would work and russia would have to stop the war.
      - CamperBob2 3y ago
        9000, LOL. OK, Olga. We identified and prosecuted the perpetrators of Abu Ghraib. What legal fate is in store for the butchers of Bucha?
        hutzlibu 3y ago
        "We identified and prosecuted the perpetrators of Abu Ghraib. " Partly. But yes, that is a difference between US and russia. Because there they got decorated. "9000, LOL. OK, Olga." https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casualties/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casu... So do you have better numbers? Or in general, do you have actually intentions of being open to discussion, including the hypthetical posibility, that your initial position might be wrong? Because that is kind of the base for a normal debate.

CamperBob2 3y ago

[flagged]

whatsu 3y ago
I don't think it is comparable, the invasion of Iraq was way worse.
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  > I don't think it is comparable, the invasion of Iraq was way worse. You think the invasion of Iraq was worse than the rape and torture of civilians, including women and children? And the summary execution of all civilians aged 16 and above?. Are you okay? or just unaware of whats going on in Ukraine?.
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    Well, my original point was the legal precedent. Invading another country without the need for self defense. (Or were there any indications, that Iraq was about to attack the US at all?) So at no point I said it is the same. But if you want actual official numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War 200 000 dead Iraq civilians vs 9 000 in Ukraine And regarding torture and rape, you might have missed Abu Ghraib and similar institutions? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_priso...
    - _kbh_ 3y ago
      > Well, my original point was the legal precedent. Invading another country without the need for self defense. (Or were there any indications, that Iraq was about to attack the US at all?) So at no point I said it is the same. This legal precedent stuff is rubbish and just more justification of Russians brutal crimes. Not to mention that Russia was doing this brutal razing and raping of civilian centres far before the US invaded Iraq. > And regarding torture and rape, you might have missed Abu Ghraib and similar institutions? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_priso https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_priso... I didn't but I missed the part where they involved children.
      - hutzlibu 3y ago
        "I didn't but I missed the part where they involved children." There certainly were also childs (<18) tortured in Iraq. Maybe I feel like digging up some sources. But right at hand I have boys as sexslaves from afghanistan institutions set up, payed and defended by US forces (and those US soldiers who stood up against it, got problems) https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-to... "This legal precedent stuff is rubbish and just more justification of Russians brutal crimes." And what exactly is rubbish about it? Or do you think international law can (should) get established for everyone minus US? The problem right now is exactly that russia is NOT isolated enough. They still can trade quite unrestricted. IF there would be a believable international law, the sanctions would work and russia would have to stop the war.
    - CamperBob2 3y ago
      9000, LOL. OK, Olga. We identified and prosecuted the perpetrators of Abu Ghraib. What legal fate is in store for the butchers of Bucha?
      - hutzlibu 3y ago
        "We identified and prosecuted the perpetrators of Abu Ghraib. " Partly. But yes, that is a difference between US and russia. Because there they got decorated. "9000, LOL. OK, Olga." https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casualties/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casu... So do you have better numbers? Or in general, do you have actually intentions of being open to discussion, including the hypthetical posibility, that your initial position might be wrong? Because that is kind of the base for a normal debate.