4 ms·

That nice bag also accounts for >300x more CO2 than the plastic bag it replaced.

ghaff 3y ago
Well, that's not the only metric. But, yes, cotton bags in particular are generally considered to have the most impact. (Somewhat ironically my nicest ones come from an environmental organization I belong to.) It probably, in general, falls into the category of performative environmentalism even if it led me to change behavior in a way I personally prefer most of the time. (It doesn't apply immediately around where I live and mostly use recyclable bags out of preference.)
- pclmulqdq 3y ago
  Yeah, I'm not sure cities should be legislating you to behave in a way that you personally prefer. They should be legislating things that are beneficial for the city and aren't preferable to people. Also, cotton bags emit about 7000-10000x as much CO2 as plastic bags, while the re-usable bags made from recycled plastic are in the hundreds - you can actually break even on CO2 with those bags if you are careful with them and make sure they don't break before the ~300th use.
  - beebeepka 3y ago
    Do cotton bags (not the only option but you seem to enjoy this example) end up being thrown away after a single use? Are they often blown away by the wind and get stuck on trees? Do sea turtles mistake them for food? We've been using the same bags (less than 10) for at least a decade.
    - pclmulqdq 3y ago
      If you're the kind of person who throws away plastic bags and doesn't re-use them as trash bags, please have the decency to cut the handles. Do your cotton bags have over 5000 trips to the grocery store over the last decade? If not, you may be carbon negative compared to single-use plastic bags (not counting the re-usability as trash bags).
      - ghaff 3y ago
        Meanwhile on this planet, the micron thick Walmart plastic plastic bags are not usefully reused as trashbags; and neither are most of the others. I don't really have a use in general for plastic bags that small and fragile except maybe in the car from time to time. To a first approximation, no one is cutting the handles and, even if they don't just toss them on the road, plenty of them surely end up blowing away out of municipal trashcans, etc. So the choice is not between reusable bags and plastic bags that are properly disposed of and repurposed, it's between reusable bags and plastic bags that are haphazardly disposed of. But maybe haphazardly disposed of plastic bags are fine. That's just the real comparison point.
        pclmulqdq 3y ago
        A lot of those bags get re-used to line small trash bins and dispose of dog poop (or other gross things like rotten food), despite how thin they are. You may be privileged enough to pay for bin liners and dedicated dog poop bags, but they are an extraneous expense for many people when plastic bags will do. I agree that nobody is cutting the handles, but the reuse is a lot more prolific than you think. Even so, they are indisputably more environmentally friendly than cotton bags.
  - George83728 3y ago
    Pros and cons for cotton bags: Pros: Never spills my groceries onto the sidewalk when I'm walking home. Looks nice. Cons: The CO2 emissions of producing... one square yard of cotton cloth. (Btw, how many pairs of pants do you own? Probably more than you need, I bet.) Yeah, looks like I'll be sticking with my cotton bag.
    - pclmulqdq 3y ago
      You do you. Just don't try to force people through legislation to adopt your style. Nobody wants to ban your cotton bag.
      - estebank 3y ago
        In a lot of places, the push for alternatives to single use plastic bags go beyond their carbon footprint at manufacture. Disposable bags end up littering cities, which can block drains and cause other issues. Is banning them heavy handed? Maybe. Does it work? I'd say so.
        pclmulqdq 3y ago
        If only that sort of littering weren't already illegal... How about we enforce that law? Where I live now, plastic bags are very common at the grocery store, and yet none of them end up on the street. I have also seen police pull someone over for throwing trash out their car window. When I lived in New York City, even the cops threw their trash onto the street, and practically nobody gets a ticket for littering. That is why there is so much litter. It's not the bags.
      - George83728 3y ago
        > Nobody wants to ban your cotton bag. Really? Well that's good to hear. Because earlier it seemed like you were agitating against cotton bags with remarks about their 10000x CO2 emissions and remarks like "god forbid reusable cotton bags". So you see, I get a little defense of my bags. I know your anti-cotton remarks are not themselves proposals for legislative bans, but online agitation about an idea is how many such bans start. E.g. the plastic straw bans started as people making a big deal online about turtles getting straws stuck in them. So please understand, when you start using such strong rhetoric against cotton bags, I see fit to defend them.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Well, that's not the only metric. But, yes, cotton bags in particular are generally considered to have the most impact. (Somewhat ironically my nicest ones come from an environmental organization I belong to.) It probably, in general, falls into the category of performative environmentalism even if it led me to change behavior in a way I personally prefer most of the time. (It doesn't apply immediately around where I live and mostly use recyclable bags out of preference.)

pclmulqdq 3y ago
Yeah, I'm not sure cities should be legislating you to behave in a way that you personally prefer. They should be legislating things that are beneficial for the city and aren't preferable to people. Also, cotton bags emit about 7000-10000x as much CO2 as plastic bags, while the re-usable bags made from recycled plastic are in the hundreds - you can actually break even on CO2 with those bags if you are careful with them and make sure they don't break before the ~300th use.
- beebeepka 3y ago
  Do cotton bags (not the only option but you seem to enjoy this example) end up being thrown away after a single use? Are they often blown away by the wind and get stuck on trees? Do sea turtles mistake them for food? We've been using the same bags (less than 10) for at least a decade.
  - pclmulqdq 3y ago
    If you're the kind of person who throws away plastic bags and doesn't re-use them as trash bags, please have the decency to cut the handles. Do your cotton bags have over 5000 trips to the grocery store over the last decade? If not, you may be carbon negative compared to single-use plastic bags (not counting the re-usability as trash bags).
    - ghaff 3y ago
      Meanwhile on this planet, the micron thick Walmart plastic plastic bags are not usefully reused as trashbags; and neither are most of the others. I don't really have a use in general for plastic bags that small and fragile except maybe in the car from time to time. To a first approximation, no one is cutting the handles and, even if they don't just toss them on the road, plenty of them surely end up blowing away out of municipal trashcans, etc. So the choice is not between reusable bags and plastic bags that are properly disposed of and repurposed, it's between reusable bags and plastic bags that are haphazardly disposed of. But maybe haphazardly disposed of plastic bags are fine. That's just the real comparison point.
      - pclmulqdq 3y ago
        A lot of those bags get re-used to line small trash bins and dispose of dog poop (or other gross things like rotten food), despite how thin they are. You may be privileged enough to pay for bin liners and dedicated dog poop bags, but they are an extraneous expense for many people when plastic bags will do. I agree that nobody is cutting the handles, but the reuse is a lot more prolific than you think. Even so, they are indisputably more environmentally friendly than cotton bags.
- George83728 3y ago
  Pros and cons for cotton bags: Pros: Never spills my groceries onto the sidewalk when I'm walking home. Looks nice. Cons: The CO2 emissions of producing... one square yard of cotton cloth. (Btw, how many pairs of pants do you own? Probably more than you need, I bet.) Yeah, looks like I'll be sticking with my cotton bag.
  - pclmulqdq 3y ago
    You do you. Just don't try to force people through legislation to adopt your style. Nobody wants to ban your cotton bag.
    - estebank 3y ago
      In a lot of places, the push for alternatives to single use plastic bags go beyond their carbon footprint at manufacture. Disposable bags end up littering cities, which can block drains and cause other issues. Is banning them heavy handed? Maybe. Does it work? I'd say so.
      - pclmulqdq 3y ago
        If only that sort of littering weren't already illegal... How about we enforce that law? Where I live now, plastic bags are very common at the grocery store, and yet none of them end up on the street. I have also seen police pull someone over for throwing trash out their car window. When I lived in New York City, even the cops threw their trash onto the street, and practically nobody gets a ticket for littering. That is why there is so much litter. It's not the bags.
    - George83728 3y ago
      > Nobody wants to ban your cotton bag. Really? Well that's good to hear. Because earlier it seemed like you were agitating against cotton bags with remarks about their 10000x CO2 emissions and remarks like "god forbid reusable cotton bags". So you see, I get a little defense of my bags. I know your anti-cotton remarks are not themselves proposals for legislative bans, but online agitation about an idea is how many such bans start. E.g. the plastic straw bans started as people making a big deal online about turtles getting straws stuck in them. So please understand, when you start using such strong rhetoric against cotton bags, I see fit to defend them.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]