5 ms·

Desktop pcs requiring a ludicrous amount of power and cooling is absolutely problematic. The amount of people willing to put up with big honking machines is dwi

Desktop pcs requiring a ludicrous amount of power and cooling is absolutely problematic. The amount of people willing to put up with big honking machines is dwindling.

BaculumMeumEst 3y ago
AMD and Intel are jacking up the default power settings to absurd levels because it gives marketing bigger numbers to to throw around. You can drastically reduce the power you supply to desktop chips with BIOS settings. You'll generate far less heat, can use a smaller power supply and form factor, while still getting great performance. If Intel/AMD get to a level where their chips rival M1/M2 while power throttled, things get interesting.
- jerrygenser 3y ago
  In general both on my own benchmarks and from what I've read/seen youtube videos, it's about a 5% performance loss multithreaded with full core saturation and 0-1% performance haircut on single threaded -- since on single threaded you are generating lower enough heat not to go near the high end. For me this was going from 105W to 65W on my 7700X and my results were similar. Not sure how it would look or work with Intel though.
- Lapha 3y ago
  Both companies are juicing up the default power limits which absolutely matters if you're concerned about total Wh for sustained loads, thermal considerations, PSU rating, noise, etc, as you mentioned, but to be fair to AMD here they've released an eco mode on the 7000 series which does lower the default power limit quite substantially. You could do this before with manual adjustments to voltage and clock speeds, but now it's a simple toggle. Another point is that in terms of power efficiency AMD are absolutely mopping the floor with Intel, where even older high power R9s are consistently outperforming Intel's lower power i5 and i7s by a wide margin. This sort of discussion is often left out of reviews which only look at TDP or peak wall power. It's still not ARM levels of efficiency, but x86 vs ARM or even desktop vs laptop efficiency is an entirely separate conversation.
- ilyt 3y ago
  I have 120W TDP chip on default settings and it only ramps up to the max in rare cases like compiling shaders for RPCSX3 > If Intel/AMD get to a level where their chips rival M1/M2 while power throttled, things get interesting. For laptop users, maybe. For desktop extra 40W literally doesn't matter.
zamalek 3y ago
> honking May I assume that you haven't used a desktop from some year equivalent to whatever Mac you use? Because modern desktops are far from "honking." I have a 7950x (the high core count desktop offering). AMD require (sans one brand) water-cooling for it. That means you get big quiet fans, which are far less "honking" than the tiny loud ones that are in laptops by necessity. In fact, due to the nice large radiators that liquid coolers have the fans don't spin at all the majority of the time. When I do need power, it's on-tap. My 6900xt is big honking during gaming, but you can get real quiet $300 GPUs. Or just use the integrated graphics and enjoy the quiet liquid cooling. > big https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-ITX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-ITX
- heelix 3y ago
  Doing the same thing. I ended up putting a 7950x into what was intended to be my next threadripper chassis and with stock settings the fans don't turn on. The only moving part would be the water pump, which is very quiet. Once in a while I get a gurgle from a bubble.
tehnub 3y ago
>ludicrous amount of power and cooling >big honking machines Buy an all-in-one water cooler for the CPU https://pcpartpicker.com/product/2PFKHx/arctic-liquid-freezer-ii-360-563-cfm-liquid-cpu-cooler-acfre00068a https://pcpartpicker.com/product/2PFKHx/arctic-liquid-freeze... It's easy to install and you have a quiet, well-cooled CPU.
- kitsunesoba 3y ago
  AIOs aren't a great option for users who want to set it and forget it. Even the best ones lose fluid to sublimation and/or start leaking after a few years, which is why there's still a market for coolers like the NH-D15.
  - tehnub 3y ago
    They won't last forever but Arctic does have a six year warranty https://www.arctic.de/us/blog/extended-warranty-period-for-all-liquid-freezer-ii-coolers https://www.arctic.de/us/blog/extended-warranty-period-for-a...
  - sgtnoodle 3y ago
    I went with the NH-D15 when I built my 5950x desktop. I've never fiddled with liquid cooling, and having to locate a radiator seemed like a pain. I very much hope not to need to touch it again for a decade. After tweaking the fan profile, it's silent most of the time. Of course, it does make it kind of a pain to remove my GPU because it's so bulky; I need to use a shim to reach the PCI-E latch.
    - kitsunesoba 3y ago
      > I need to use a shim to reach the PCI-E latch. Similar here, there's not much room left when you've got a NH-D15 and EVGA 3080 Ti FTW3 installed. This is more of an inadequacy on the part of motherboard manufacturers, though. PCI-E latches don't have to be terrible… look at the system Apple uses in their 2019 and 2023 Mac Pro towers for example which remain accessible regardless of what you have installed.
    - 3y ago
burmanm 3y ago
Is it? Why? My machine is entirely silent on normal operations (Zen 3 5600X and RX 6700). All the fans, on both GPU and CPU are stopped in desktop usage. And it doesn't obviously eat that much power (my monitor probably eats more). The only moment I could hear them is if I play games. And then I have headset on, so I can't hear them. I really couldn't care less if it ate twice the amount of power when playing games.
- pdpi 3y ago
  > Is it? Why? Because, while gaming, the vents in my case blow air at over 40 degrees Celsius, and that heat has to go somewhere. Absent a setup that can put the case several meters away from me, that "somewhere" is on top of me.
  - ilyt 3y ago
    Flip it 180 degrees ? Cases are designed to blow the air into the back, not to have back facing the user...
- waboremo 3y ago
  You should care because you're paying for that energy use lol
  - burmanm 3y ago
    In the end that sum it takes energy during gaming is meaningless. I spend more on coffee while playing than to electricity.
    - waboremo 3y ago
      Right, and you could have afforded better/more coffee with the savings costs to consuming less power. Which is the point: energy costs are not 0. These costs vary depending on which devices you play on, regardless of games. Someone playing the same games as you on PS5 rather than a gaming PC, is going to save enough money to then buy another indie game per month or more coffees in that month than you. Note: this isn't about debating which platform is best, rather understanding power consumption impact and the cost to your budget. Are these costs major? Life changing? Absolutely not. But you should care about them and make decisions incorporating them, not ignoring it as if power consumption is irrelevant even if doubled!
pdpi 3y ago
> Desktop pcs requiring a ludicrous amount of power and cooling is absolutely problematic. High-end PSUs now overlap with smaller space heaters on power output. My living room is usually 3-4 degrees hotter around my desk than it is by the dining table.I'm looking to upgrade my gaming PC, and getting the power budget under control is surprisingly challenging.
- jerrygenser 3y ago
  For your gaming PC you likely don't even need a current gen chip. You are probably fine with a 5600 for most games unless you NEED high FPS on certain games and have a monitor with 244hz refresh rate (or you won't even get the frames) Gaming is mostly about GPU (if you're casual gamer and want to run 1440p) but if you do need cpu and high refresh rate then you're likely hardcore FPS or RTS games and you're running at 1080P anyway and then in that situation don't need a high end GPU. I have a AMD 7700X and I run it on Eco Mode which is approx 65W TDP instead of the 105W TDP it wants to run at. For my general use (including cpu intensive operations) this makes absolutely no perceivable difference. I ran some benchmarks out of curiosity and I take about a 5% haircut for a massive power and heat savings. What Intel and AMD did with the chips was essentially sell consumers a default overclocked chip that will run to the max of the thermal headroom that your fan will allow and sit there. They did this to be competitive with each other in benchmarks for marketing. Most consumers should run these chips in some sort of eco mode since the performance per watt has severe diminishing returns and they are actually quite power efficient as long as you don't run it on the default factory overclocked settings.
  - eikenberry 3y ago
    > For your gaming PC you likely don't even need a current gen chip. Many gamers, like me, probably also use their display for things aside from gaming. For non-gaming computer work I like 4K w/ a high (120hz ideally) refresh rate for well rendered text and smoother movement. But as I also then want to use this monitor for gaming, I need a gaming system that supports this. TLDR; you might need a current gen chip for reasons other than gaming.
marsven_422 3y ago
[dead]

Desktop pcs requiring a ludicrous amount of power and cooling is absolutely problematic. The amount of people willing to put up with big honking machines is dwindling.

BaculumMeumEst 3y ago

AMD and Intel are jacking up the default power settings to absurd levels because it gives marketing bigger numbers to to throw around. You can drastically reduce the power you supply to desktop chips with BIOS settings. You'll generate far less heat, can use a smaller power supply and form factor, while still getting great performance. If Intel/AMD get to a level where their chips rival M1/M2 while power throttled, things get interesting.

jerrygenser 3y ago
In general both on my own benchmarks and from what I've read/seen youtube videos, it's about a 5% performance loss multithreaded with full core saturation and 0-1% performance haircut on single threaded -- since on single threaded you are generating lower enough heat not to go near the high end. For me this was going from 105W to 65W on my 7700X and my results were similar. Not sure how it would look or work with Intel though.
Lapha 3y ago
Both companies are juicing up the default power limits which absolutely matters if you're concerned about total Wh for sustained loads, thermal considerations, PSU rating, noise, etc, as you mentioned, but to be fair to AMD here they've released an eco mode on the 7000 series which does lower the default power limit quite substantially. You could do this before with manual adjustments to voltage and clock speeds, but now it's a simple toggle. Another point is that in terms of power efficiency AMD are absolutely mopping the floor with Intel, where even older high power R9s are consistently outperforming Intel's lower power i5 and i7s by a wide margin. This sort of discussion is often left out of reviews which only look at TDP or peak wall power. It's still not ARM levels of efficiency, but x86 vs ARM or even desktop vs laptop efficiency is an entirely separate conversation.
ilyt 3y ago
I have 120W TDP chip on default settings and it only ramps up to the max in rare cases like compiling shaders for RPCSX3 > If Intel/AMD get to a level where their chips rival M1/M2 while power throttled, things get interesting. For laptop users, maybe. For desktop extra 40W literally doesn't matter.

zamalek 3y ago

> honking May I assume that you haven't used a desktop from some year equivalent to whatever Mac you use? Because modern desktops are far from "honking." I have a 7950x (the high core count desktop offering). AMD require (sans one brand) water-cooling for it. That means you get big quiet fans, which are far less "honking" than the tiny loud ones that are in laptops by necessity. In fact, due to the nice large radiators that liquid coolers have the fans don't spin at all the majority of the time. When I do need power, it's on-tap. My 6900xt is big honking during gaming, but you can get real quiet $300 GPUs. Or just use the integrated graphics and enjoy the quiet liquid cooling. > big https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-ITX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-ITX

heelix 3y ago
Doing the same thing. I ended up putting a 7950x into what was intended to be my next threadripper chassis and with stock settings the fans don't turn on. The only moving part would be the water pump, which is very quiet. Once in a while I get a gurgle from a bubble.

tehnub 3y ago

>ludicrous amount of power and cooling >big honking machines Buy an all-in-one water cooler for the CPU https://pcpartpicker.com/product/2PFKHx/arctic-liquid-freezer-ii-360-563-cfm-liquid-cpu-cooler-acfre00068a https://pcpartpicker.com/product/2PFKHx/arctic-liquid-freeze... It's easy to install and you have a quiet, well-cooled CPU.

kitsunesoba 3y ago
AIOs aren't a great option for users who want to set it and forget it. Even the best ones lose fluid to sublimation and/or start leaking after a few years, which is why there's still a market for coolers like the NH-D15.
- tehnub 3y ago
  They won't last forever but Arctic does have a six year warranty https://www.arctic.de/us/blog/extended-warranty-period-for-all-liquid-freezer-ii-coolers https://www.arctic.de/us/blog/extended-warranty-period-for-a...
- sgtnoodle 3y ago
  I went with the NH-D15 when I built my 5950x desktop. I've never fiddled with liquid cooling, and having to locate a radiator seemed like a pain. I very much hope not to need to touch it again for a decade. After tweaking the fan profile, it's silent most of the time. Of course, it does make it kind of a pain to remove my GPU because it's so bulky; I need to use a shim to reach the PCI-E latch.
  - kitsunesoba 3y ago
    > I need to use a shim to reach the PCI-E latch. Similar here, there's not much room left when you've got a NH-D15 and EVGA 3080 Ti FTW3 installed. This is more of an inadequacy on the part of motherboard manufacturers, though. PCI-E latches don't have to be terrible… look at the system Apple uses in their 2019 and 2023 Mac Pro towers for example which remain accessible regardless of what you have installed.
  - 3y ago

burmanm 3y ago

Is it? Why? My machine is entirely silent on normal operations (Zen 3 5600X and RX 6700). All the fans, on both GPU and CPU are stopped in desktop usage. And it doesn't obviously eat that much power (my monitor probably eats more). The only moment I could hear them is if I play games. And then I have headset on, so I can't hear them. I really couldn't care less if it ate twice the amount of power when playing games.

pdpi 3y ago
> Is it? Why? Because, while gaming, the vents in my case blow air at over 40 degrees Celsius, and that heat has to go somewhere. Absent a setup that can put the case several meters away from me, that "somewhere" is on top of me.
- ilyt 3y ago
  Flip it 180 degrees ? Cases are designed to blow the air into the back, not to have back facing the user...
waboremo 3y ago
You should care because you're paying for that energy use lol
- burmanm 3y ago
  In the end that sum it takes energy during gaming is meaningless. I spend more on coffee while playing than to electricity.
  - waboremo 3y ago
    Right, and you could have afforded better/more coffee with the savings costs to consuming less power. Which is the point: energy costs are not 0. These costs vary depending on which devices you play on, regardless of games. Someone playing the same games as you on PS5 rather than a gaming PC, is going to save enough money to then buy another indie game per month or more coffees in that month than you. Note: this isn't about debating which platform is best, rather understanding power consumption impact and the cost to your budget. Are these costs major? Life changing? Absolutely not. But you should care about them and make decisions incorporating them, not ignoring it as if power consumption is irrelevant even if doubled!

pdpi 3y ago

> Desktop pcs requiring a ludicrous amount of power and cooling is absolutely problematic. High-end PSUs now overlap with smaller space heaters on power output. My living room is usually 3-4 degrees hotter around my desk than it is by the dining table.I'm looking to upgrade my gaming PC, and getting the power budget under control is surprisingly challenging.

jerrygenser 3y ago
For your gaming PC you likely don't even need a current gen chip. You are probably fine with a 5600 for most games unless you NEED high FPS on certain games and have a monitor with 244hz refresh rate (or you won't even get the frames) Gaming is mostly about GPU (if you're casual gamer and want to run 1440p) but if you do need cpu and high refresh rate then you're likely hardcore FPS or RTS games and you're running at 1080P anyway and then in that situation don't need a high end GPU. I have a AMD 7700X and I run it on Eco Mode which is approx 65W TDP instead of the 105W TDP it wants to run at. For my general use (including cpu intensive operations) this makes absolutely no perceivable difference. I ran some benchmarks out of curiosity and I take about a 5% haircut for a massive power and heat savings. What Intel and AMD did with the chips was essentially sell consumers a default overclocked chip that will run to the max of the thermal headroom that your fan will allow and sit there. They did this to be competitive with each other in benchmarks for marketing. Most consumers should run these chips in some sort of eco mode since the performance per watt has severe diminishing returns and they are actually quite power efficient as long as you don't run it on the default factory overclocked settings.
- eikenberry 3y ago
  > For your gaming PC you likely don't even need a current gen chip. Many gamers, like me, probably also use their display for things aside from gaming. For non-gaming computer work I like 4K w/ a high (120hz ideally) refresh rate for well rendered text and smoother movement. But as I also then want to use this monitor for gaming, I need a gaming system that supports this. TLDR; you might need a current gen chip for reasons other than gaming.

marsven_422 3y ago

[dead]