5 ms·

Wouldn't the cost of fuel cells come down, as happened with PV, once they are mass produced? Or, is there some inherent high cost to them?

by bwanab 3y ago

dmbche 3y ago
I think it's inherent from the danger of hydrogen and I imagine it's extremely reactive, it might interact with most materials used to hold it.
jgamman 3y ago
currently use a lot of rare metals like platinum. inc vol of fuel cells will drive up price of fairly inelastic supply of rare metals. or require step change in anode/cathode catalysts to cheaper metals
- _hypx 3y ago
  Not all fuel cells use platinum, and those that do use very small amounts of it: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/bosch-ev-fuel-cells-less-platinum-report/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/bosch-ev-fuel-cells-less-... > The major auto supplier, which recently partnered with Sweden's Powercell, is working on a new fuel cell architecture that, according to Reuters' report, will "use only as much platinum as a diesel catalytic converter."
_hypx 3y ago
That is what is happening now. Critics of this idea are just repeating the same arguments that where used against PV too.
_aavaa_ 3y ago
There isn't an inherent cost, just an inherent inefficiency in the electricity -> hydrogen -> electricity process. So the price would come down if they were massed produced. Except you would need a market that is willing to pay the high cost until it comes down. Such a market segment has yet to materialise. If you build satellite you need a source of energy that doesn't depend on your bringing fuel for it. So you're willing to pay the obscene starting price of PV. If you needed/wanted clean electricity made off-grid you're willing to pay for PV since it had many benefits over the alternatives (if they even existed in your situation). What is the same starting market for fuel cells? It would have to: 1. Not care that the hydrogen is difficult to transport to that location, or be willing to invest in the costly equipment to make and store it on site. 2. It would have to be willing to put up with the poor end-to-end efficiency, both in absolute and relative terms. 3. It would need to be isolated from a grid such that you would require storage in the first place. 4. It would need to be long term and isolated enough such that batteries, pumped hydro, connection to the grid, and overbuilding of renewable are not a viable/cheaper alternative.

Wouldn't the cost of fuel cells come down, as happened with PV, once they are mass produced? Or, is there some inherent high cost to them?

by bwanab 3y ago

Wouldn't the cost of fuel cells come down, as happened with PV, once they are mass produced? Or, is there some inherent high cost to them?

dmbche 3y ago

I think it's inherent from the danger of hydrogen and I imagine it's extremely reactive, it might interact with most materials used to hold it.

jgamman 3y ago

currently use a lot of rare metals like platinum. inc vol of fuel cells will drive up price of fairly inelastic supply of rare metals. or require step change in anode/cathode catalysts to cheaper metals

_hypx 3y ago
Not all fuel cells use platinum, and those that do use very small amounts of it: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/bosch-ev-fuel-cells-less-platinum-report/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/bosch-ev-fuel-cells-less-... > The major auto supplier, which recently partnered with Sweden's Powercell, is working on a new fuel cell architecture that, according to Reuters' report, will "use only as much platinum as a diesel catalytic converter."

_hypx 3y ago

That is what is happening now. Critics of this idea are just repeating the same arguments that where used against PV too.

_aavaa_ 3y ago

There isn't an inherent cost, just an inherent inefficiency in the electricity -> hydrogen -> electricity process. So the price would come down if they were massed produced. Except you would need a market that is willing to pay the high cost until it comes down. Such a market segment has yet to materialise. If you build satellite you need a source of energy that doesn't depend on your bringing fuel for it. So you're willing to pay the obscene starting price of PV. If you needed/wanted clean electricity made off-grid you're willing to pay for PV since it had many benefits over the alternatives (if they even existed in your situation). What is the same starting market for fuel cells? It would have to: 1. Not care that the hydrogen is difficult to transport to that location, or be willing to invest in the costly equipment to make and store it on site. 2. It would have to be willing to put up with the poor end-to-end efficiency, both in absolute and relative terms. 3. It would need to be isolated from a grid such that you would require storage in the first place. 4. It would need to be long term and isolated enough such that batteries, pumped hydro, connection to the grid, and overbuilding of renewable are not a viable/cheaper alternative.