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So despite the massive ridership of the subway and the fully paid infrastructure and rights of way from 100 years ago, it can't throw off enough cash for modern

So despite the massive ridership of the subway and the fully paid infrastructure and rights of way from 100 years ago, it can't throw off enough cash for modernization of its systems? And instead politicians decide to tax the successful mode of transportation, which is cars. Note that given the density and NY gas taxes, it is a certainty that cars in this area generate surplus cash.

colejohnson66 3y ago
I see ads on the LIRR all the time from NYC saying "we love having a driver's license for everything but driving". The city doesn't hide that it wants to get rid of cars. I don't blame them; cars in the business district are a nightmare for pedestrians and drivers.
raldi 3y ago
Driving is hugely subsidized. This proposal is simply to slightly reduce that subsidy, which will continue to be hefty.
MAGZine 3y ago
wut? in manhattan, calling 'cars' the successful more of transportation is very weird. the train is almost always faster, cheaper, and more consistent. The pitfalls are accessibility sucks (most stations are not ADA compliant), and frequency drops off later at night, but if you just plan a little it's not a big deal.
lom 3y ago
I’m sorry what? Cars are the most subsidized thing in America today, you can’t speak of success when they get billions of blank checks handed to them in many different ways. See here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921800921003943?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092180092... Meanwhile public transit: https://www.apta.com/research-technical-resources/research-reports/economic-impact-of-public-transportation-investment/ https://www.apta.com/research-technical-resources/research-r...
- bequanna 3y ago
  From your first link: > The true scale of social costs is rarely considered… Yep, that is pretty much what I was expecting. Some hand waving and lecturing about qualitative, subjective externalities. This is social commentary and opinion pretending to be science.
  - xnyan 3y ago
    Are you arguing that when a car parks on the street, there's no actual value to that parking spot? The article is just arguing that there are externalities related to car use, and I'm confused how you conclude these externalities do not exist. Is it the use of the word social that makes you uncomfortable?
elijaht 3y ago
Have you been to New York? The subway is the mode of transportation for nearly everyone and it works great. I wouldn’t say cars are the successful mode of transportation in New York at all
- shrubble 3y ago
  In terms of paying enough taxes to sustain further use, is how I should have phrased it. Why can't the subway fund its own improvements?
  - zip1234 3y ago
    Road user fees don't even cover half of the cost of roads let alone make up for all the negative externalities.
    - dotnet00 3y ago
      If we're complaining about the costs of negative externalities, are we also considering the value of the positive externalities?
      - zip1234 3y ago
        The benefits are why people would pay the price of the negative externalities. If not deemed to be worthwhile, there are other means of transportation that have less negative externalities.
- dotnet00 3y ago
  Describing the NYC subway as "working great" is an amazing twisting of the truth. The only thing good about it is that it isn't as bad as public transport in Long Island. Otherwise, good luck going anywhere on time without having to add 30 minutes - an hour of waste just standing around. The discomfort and cost of public transportation would be at least somewhat tolerable if there was anywhere near as much of an emphasis on timeliness as there is in, say, Japan. As it stands though, the public transport is the one thing I miss least and hate most about the city.
wussboy 3y ago
Cars don't and can't scale and we waste staggering amounts of space and infrastructure on what would be better utilized and more profitably spent on walkability.
nimbleplum40 3y ago
How much money do freeways make directly? How about local roads? Last I checked local roads produce zero revenue. Should we get rid of them?
bootwoot 3y ago
Pedestrian and bike deaths are climbing [0]. 44% of New Yorkers are considered rent burdened [1] and sure as fuck can't afford a car in the city. Cars can only be considered a successful mode of transportation from a fairly wealthy and elite perspective of a car owner in New York. If you have the cash for the car itself and off-the-street parking, sure, it's probably great. But for everyone else it makes daily life of walking and biking in the street significantly more dangerous with no clear reciprocal benefit. [0] https://www.curbed.com/2023/04/its-already-been-a-deadly-year-for-new-york-cyclists.html#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20there%20were%20275,over%20the%20past%20ten%20years https://www.curbed.com/2023/04/its-already-been-a-deadly-yea.... [1] https://wherewelive.cityofnewyork.us/explore-data/housing-conditions/ https://wherewelive.cityofnewyork.us/explore-data/housing-co...

colejohnson66 3y ago

I see ads on the LIRR all the time from NYC saying "we love having a driver's license for everything but driving". The city doesn't hide that it wants to get rid of cars. I don't blame them; cars in the business district are a nightmare for pedestrians and drivers.

raldi 3y ago

Driving is hugely subsidized. This proposal is simply to slightly reduce that subsidy, which will continue to be hefty.

MAGZine 3y ago

wut? in manhattan, calling 'cars' the successful more of transportation is very weird. the train is almost always faster, cheaper, and more consistent. The pitfalls are accessibility sucks (most stations are not ADA compliant), and frequency drops off later at night, but if you just plan a little it's not a big deal.

lom 3y ago

I’m sorry what? Cars are the most subsidized thing in America today, you can’t speak of success when they get billions of blank checks handed to them in many different ways. See here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921800921003943?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092180092... Meanwhile public transit: https://www.apta.com/research-technical-resources/research-reports/economic-impact-of-public-transportation-investment/ https://www.apta.com/research-technical-resources/research-r...

bequanna 3y ago
From your first link: > The true scale of social costs is rarely considered… Yep, that is pretty much what I was expecting. Some hand waving and lecturing about qualitative, subjective externalities. This is social commentary and opinion pretending to be science.
- xnyan 3y ago
  Are you arguing that when a car parks on the street, there's no actual value to that parking spot? The article is just arguing that there are externalities related to car use, and I'm confused how you conclude these externalities do not exist. Is it the use of the word social that makes you uncomfortable?

elijaht 3y ago

Have you been to New York? The subway is the mode of transportation for nearly everyone and it works great. I wouldn’t say cars are the successful mode of transportation in New York at all

shrubble 3y ago
In terms of paying enough taxes to sustain further use, is how I should have phrased it. Why can't the subway fund its own improvements?
- zip1234 3y ago
  Road user fees don't even cover half of the cost of roads let alone make up for all the negative externalities.
  - dotnet00 3y ago
    If we're complaining about the costs of negative externalities, are we also considering the value of the positive externalities?
    - zip1234 3y ago
      The benefits are why people would pay the price of the negative externalities. If not deemed to be worthwhile, there are other means of transportation that have less negative externalities.
dotnet00 3y ago
Describing the NYC subway as "working great" is an amazing twisting of the truth. The only thing good about it is that it isn't as bad as public transport in Long Island. Otherwise, good luck going anywhere on time without having to add 30 minutes - an hour of waste just standing around. The discomfort and cost of public transportation would be at least somewhat tolerable if there was anywhere near as much of an emphasis on timeliness as there is in, say, Japan. As it stands though, the public transport is the one thing I miss least and hate most about the city.

wussboy 3y ago

Cars don't and can't scale and we waste staggering amounts of space and infrastructure on what would be better utilized and more profitably spent on walkability.

nimbleplum40 3y ago

How much money do freeways make directly? How about local roads? Last I checked local roads produce zero revenue. Should we get rid of them?

bootwoot 3y ago

Pedestrian and bike deaths are climbing [0]. 44% of New Yorkers are considered rent burdened [1] and sure as fuck can't afford a car in the city. Cars can only be considered a successful mode of transportation from a fairly wealthy and elite perspective of a car owner in New York. If you have the cash for the car itself and off-the-street parking, sure, it's probably great. But for everyone else it makes daily life of walking and biking in the street significantly more dangerous with no clear reciprocal benefit. [0] https://www.curbed.com/2023/04/its-already-been-a-deadly-year-for-new-york-cyclists.html#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20there%20were%20275,over%20the%20past%20ten%20years https://www.curbed.com/2023/04/its-already-been-a-deadly-yea.... [1] https://wherewelive.cityofnewyork.us/explore-data/housing-conditions/ https://wherewelive.cityofnewyork.us/explore-data/housing-co...