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Soviet leadership, including Gorbachev himself, have explicitly denied that any assurances existed. Like Shevardnadze, he denied that they even talked about it

Soviet leadership, including Gorbachev himself, have explicitly denied that any assurances existed. Like Shevardnadze, he denied that they even talked about it with western counterparts. In his own words: "The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. … Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement was made in that context…" Nobody brought the alleged assurances up when former Warsaw Pact joined NATO either. This narrative didn't exist until mid-2000, by which time NATO enlargement had largely ended. The spirit that Gorbachev bitterly speaks about is his idea of "Common European Home" that did not come to fruition, as Eastern Europe didn't want to have anything to do with Russians after half a century of oppression and turned their backs as soon as they could choose their own path. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Home https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Home

lisasays 3y ago
Soviet leadership, including Gorbachev himself, have explicitly denied that any assurances existed. As regards Gorbachev -- what did he say actually, and when? And why would he say the exact opposite in his RBTH interview in 2014? (Granted, this is RBTH -- but I think we can be reasonably confident that the interview is not a fabrication and that he is being quoted correctly). Here's his quote again, in full context - and it's clear he's not not referring to the Common European Home: The decision for the U.S. and its allies to expand NATO into the east was decisively made in 1993. I called this a big mistake from the very beginning. It was definitely a violation of the spirit of the statements and assurances made to us in 1990. With regards to Germany, they were legally enshrined and are being observed.
- chrysler 3y ago
  My quote is from the same interview. I repeat: "The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years." If that interview leaves anything unclear, then Spiegel tried to get a "yes, assurances existed" answer from foreign minister Shevardnadze from several different angles, but he replied to every attempt with a "No." Spiegel: https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/interview-with-eduard-shevardnadze-we-couldn-t-believe-that-the-warsaw-pact-could-be-dissolved-a-663595.html https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/interview-with-e...
  - lisasays 3y ago
    Mmm -- my sense is that you're also "arranging scraps" here to get them to line up and support the narrative that you like. By my reading, Gorbachev's later statement -- "definitely a violation of the spirit of the statements and assurances made to us in 1990" (referring to NATO's decisive steps towards expansion starting in 1993) -- is more holistic, and seals the matter. Not that there was "conspiracy" to hoodwink the Soviets from the beginning, per your straw-man argument. But still -- against the spirit of the statements and assurances made at the time, 'twas. Shevardnadze's statements might seem to contradict this, but not really -- Shevardnadze is focusing on the details; Gorbachev is talking about the bigger, "moral" picture if you will.
    - chrysler 3y ago
      And that's why I call it a conspiracy theory - it relies on a small number of select snippets, interpreted in the most favorable way possible, ignoring things like explicit statements to the opposite from the very same sources. A textbook example of conspiratorial thinking. The facts are simple: 1. Possible NATO status of Warsaw Pact countries was never discussed. 2. There was no assurance from NATO to Soviet Union on possible NATO status of Warsaw Pact countries. 3. Key members of the Soviet leadership explicitly deny any such assurances. 4. Russia never brought up any such assurances when Warsaw Pact countries joined NATO. 5. Russia and NATO signed a treaty greenlighting NATO enlargement before any official talks with Warsaw Pact countries started. What was discussed in 1990: 1. Integration of East German military into NATO structures. 2. Size and composition of German military after reunification. 3. Placement of NATO forces (that is, from the US, UK, and elsewhere) in East Germany. This has nothing to do with NATO status of Warsaw Pact countries. Placement of NATO troops (discussed) and potential members of NATO (not discussed) should not be confused.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - lisasays 3y ago
        Russia and NATO signed a treaty greenlighting NATO enlargement before any official talks with Warsaw Pact countries started. Which can't possibly be the CFE - so which treaty (and which specific provisions of that treaty) are you referring to? Your notion of "conspiracy theory" is plainly at odds with the commonly accepted definition of the term, BTW. But we'll move past that for now.

lisasays 3y ago

Soviet leadership, including Gorbachev himself, have explicitly denied that any assurances existed. As regards Gorbachev -- what did he say actually, and when? And why would he say the exact opposite in his RBTH interview in 2014? (Granted, this is RBTH -- but I think we can be reasonably confident that the interview is not a fabrication and that he is being quoted correctly). Here's his quote again, in full context - and it's clear he's not not referring to the Common European Home: The decision for the U.S. and its allies to expand NATO into the east was decisively made in 1993. I called this a big mistake from the very beginning. It was definitely a violation of the spirit of the statements and assurances made to us in 1990. With regards to Germany, they were legally enshrined and are being observed.

chrysler 3y ago
My quote is from the same interview. I repeat: "The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years." If that interview leaves anything unclear, then Spiegel tried to get a "yes, assurances existed" answer from foreign minister Shevardnadze from several different angles, but he replied to every attempt with a "No." Spiegel: https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/interview-with-eduard-shevardnadze-we-couldn-t-believe-that-the-warsaw-pact-could-be-dissolved-a-663595.html https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/interview-with-e...
- lisasays 3y ago
  Mmm -- my sense is that you're also "arranging scraps" here to get them to line up and support the narrative that you like. By my reading, Gorbachev's later statement -- "definitely a violation of the spirit of the statements and assurances made to us in 1990" (referring to NATO's decisive steps towards expansion starting in 1993) -- is more holistic, and seals the matter. Not that there was "conspiracy" to hoodwink the Soviets from the beginning, per your straw-man argument. But still -- against the spirit of the statements and assurances made at the time, 'twas. Shevardnadze's statements might seem to contradict this, but not really -- Shevardnadze is focusing on the details; Gorbachev is talking about the bigger, "moral" picture if you will.
  - chrysler 3y ago
    And that's why I call it a conspiracy theory - it relies on a small number of select snippets, interpreted in the most favorable way possible, ignoring things like explicit statements to the opposite from the very same sources. A textbook example of conspiratorial thinking. The facts are simple: 1. Possible NATO status of Warsaw Pact countries was never discussed. 2. There was no assurance from NATO to Soviet Union on possible NATO status of Warsaw Pact countries. 3. Key members of the Soviet leadership explicitly deny any such assurances. 4. Russia never brought up any such assurances when Warsaw Pact countries joined NATO. 5. Russia and NATO signed a treaty greenlighting NATO enlargement before any official talks with Warsaw Pact countries started. What was discussed in 1990: 1. Integration of East German military into NATO structures. 2. Size and composition of German military after reunification. 3. Placement of NATO forces (that is, from the US, UK, and elsewhere) in East Germany. This has nothing to do with NATO status of Warsaw Pact countries. Placement of NATO troops (discussed) and potential members of NATO (not discussed) should not be confused.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - lisasays 3y ago
      Russia and NATO signed a treaty greenlighting NATO enlargement before any official talks with Warsaw Pact countries started. Which can't possibly be the CFE - so which treaty (and which specific provisions of that treaty) are you referring to? Your notion of "conspiracy theory" is plainly at odds with the commonly accepted definition of the term, BTW. But we'll move past that for now.