6 ms·

You can without a doubt take this even further and train it to detect all sorts felonies. The felonies will mainly be simple ones that perpetrated by the lower

You can without a doubt take this even further and train it to detect all sorts felonies. The felonies will mainly be simple ones that perpetrated by the lower and middle class. Builder working without a bill? Crosscheck income with an country wide average and their spending history. Nailed. Waitresses working without paying tax? Crosscheck size of establishment with formally employees. Nailed. Of course, this not only has privacy issues but also one of social justice. Illegal employment, or what is called "sort arbejde" in Danish or Schwarzarbeit in German if want a compounded word, allows builders en masse to make a decent wage and is widespread, in Denmark at least.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
raverbashing 3y ago
A lot of this is already done (incl. IRS in the US) and you don't need "AI" for it, though it is the current buzzword I'll abstain from discussing the legal and societal aspects of such tighter enforcement though I might say every enforcement needs some kind of "wiggle room"
kfrzcode 3y ago
Mmmmm strict bureaucracy....
hkt 3y ago
Working class and even middle class people in France (and most of the world) definitely don't have swimming pools. No doubt you're right about the general case, though.
- SanderNL 3y ago
  Even in the Netherlands it’s not that rare especially outside the metropolitan areas. It’s just cold here so we do different things with the space.
- dinkblam 3y ago
  Huh? Swimming pools are definitely something middle class people can afford. Just not in a city centre, obviously.
  - beebeepka 3y ago
    Damn, how much does it cost to have a decent one in France/Netherlands/where you are. Hope you guys realize you are wealthy.
    - arp242 3y ago
      At the lower end all you need is a tarp, shovel, a hose, and probably a pump to filter the water. You can also build one out of wood (we did this when I was with the scouts, and the biggest cost concern was the price of the water). It doesn't need to be expensive; not every swimming pool has to be a large and fancy.
      - Etrnl_President 3y ago
        [dead]
JCharante 3y ago
Why shouldn't crimes perpetrated by lower and middle class be persecuted? The rich already pay a disproportionately large amount of taxes and then society excuses lower and middle class persons from paying their small share of taxes.
- lnsru 3y ago
  Rich optimize taxes due to many loopholes in tax system using insanely well paid consultants specializing exactly in that. While middle class gives at least 2/3 of the pre-tax money for taxes, so called insurances and weird things like petrol tax in Germany.
  - zo1 3y ago
    I don't want to be snark about it, but why not make a SAAS or product out of such loopholes? Commoditize them, and have economies of scale work. Of course, my first thought as to why that hasn't been possible is because there is a "lower bound" cost to such things that on a meta-level only really works if the rich do it. E.g. the $5k cost and $100k minimum bank balance to have a bank account in tax haven country X, and the $1600 yearly company registration fees to maintain a shell company in country Y.
    - lnsru 3y ago
      I guess client group is rather limited. Salaried employees have to pay taxes. There is no other way. Small businesses can deduct cars and iPhones as expenses and are happy. It gets interesting reaching mid 7 digit revenue zone. But on other hand it is also matter of trust. I have classmates advising about these things, very interesting stuff. Exclusively for real riches.
- mandmandam 3y ago
  > The rich already pay a disproportionately large amount of taxes INCOME taxes. Which is NOT the same as WEALTH. If you're going to talk about "the rich" then you need to differentiate between the wealthy ownership class (the people who own things like the debt for our 20 trillion dollar illegal wars, or your mortgage), and the software engineers and doctors who get spooked by any talk of raising taxes. This guy explains the issue in simple terms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXP8gH0wddE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXP8gH0wddE - He's British, but it applies to the US also.
ithkuil 3y ago
The main reason I'm ok to have low/middle class pay their fair share of taxes and not have "Schwartzarbeit" is that that's not fair to other low/middle class workers who cannot as easily avoid paying their taxes
contrarian1234 3y ago
This degenerates into worse subjective and discriminatory systems Just think of traffic cops on the highway in the US. If you have big tits and a pretty smile you get off with a warning, but if you're black with resting bitch face then you'll get a ticket or maybe even some K9 action Either enforce laws or get rid of the laws. If you don't have a system to track swimming pools then don't tax swimming pools. In the worse dystopian case (see Russia and a lot of the third world) the endless unenforced laws become a means for the govt to harass people they don't like
- sokoloff 3y ago
  > If you don't have a system to track swimming pools then don't tax swimming pools. You’ll be happy to learn that France has moved in the direction to comply with your concern here.
  - candiodari 3y ago
    How much do you want to bet that 1) There's a 4-5% mistake rate 2) getting a wrong conclusion of the AI turned back is a 2-year kafkaieske nightmare where you have to front all the money, and even after they admit they're wrong it takes 5 years to get your money back. And then next year you get another tax bill for the nonexistent pool and we start from scratch?
    - trilbyglens 3y ago
      I bet they are only flagging locations for physical inspection.
      - candiodari 3y ago
        That doesn't sound like French government at all. Plus that'd be monumentally impractical for them (have you seen how big France is -and how inaccessible parts of it can be?). The reputation of the tax office is that the tiniest of inconveniences is more than enough to prevent them from doing something. Oh and there's the surprisingly little known fact that French citizens torched most of the cars and half of the government departments, including Police stations, in Paris (and Marseille, and Lille, and Toulouse, and ...) on a regular basis for 5 years now. And I bet the recent pension reform is going to make that worse, not better. Government employees physically inspecting anything will result in large scale battles with the public these days. So I would like to add: they won't physically inspect these pools for the simple reason that nobody wants to get killed working for the tax agency in France, and that's exactly what will happen if they go out and physically check.
snthd 3y ago
>but also one of social justice. Illegal employment, or what is called "sort arbejde" in Danish or Schwarzarbeit in German if want a compounded word, allows builders en masse to make a decent wage and is widespread, in Denmark at least. Illegal employment also goes hand in hand with exploitation. https://www.dw.com/en/spains-sea-of-plastic-where-europe-gets-its-produce-migrants-get-exploited/a-47824476 https://www.dw.com/en/spains-sea-of-plastic-where-europe-get... >(2019) The greenhouses of Almeria grow much of Europe's fruits and vegetables. The region's dark secret: Tens of thousands of migrants are apparently taken advantage of to fill supermarket produce sections. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50200217 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50200217 >'Exploited' workers propping up the [UK] building sector (2019) (Maybe the construction industry in the UK is worse for this than Denmark/Germany?) And modern slavery https://www.unseenuk.org/modern-slavery-in-construction-is-on-the-rise/ https://www.unseenuk.org/modern-slavery-in-construction-is-o... >In the EU, construction ranks second only to the sex industry as the sector most prone to modern slavery. Even North Korea is in on it (2016) https://www.dw.com/en/sent-from-north-korea-exploited-in-poland/a-19337859 https://www.dw.com/en/sent-from-north-korea-exploited-in-pol... >Hundreds of North Korean workers are believed to be toiling in Poland under degrading conditions. It's worth remembering that there are more people in slavery than there have ever been. I think we're "blind" to it much the same people must have been at the height of the transatlantic slave trade. It's normal. People are more interested in cheaper products and not paying their tax. On the other hand freedom can't exist without the possibility of crime.
- jbm 3y ago
  > It's worth remembering that there are more people in slavery than there have ever been Much like drugs. What is it about prohibition that makes a crime more popular?
moltar 3y ago
By the way, Canadian tax office has been cross checking with similarities in the category for a long time. Don’t even need an AI or ML for that.
poisonborz 3y ago
On the other hand, as more law is written in code, the more easier any deviances or unlawful privileges could be detected - including when someone goes around the (open source) algo-based result. Maybe it's naive, but this could also lead to more transparency.
neilwilson 3y ago
Tax authorities already use Benfords law to detect unusual returns.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

raverbashing 3y ago

A lot of this is already done (incl. IRS in the US) and you don't need "AI" for it, though it is the current buzzword I'll abstain from discussing the legal and societal aspects of such tighter enforcement though I might say every enforcement needs some kind of "wiggle room"

kfrzcode 3y ago

Mmmmm strict bureaucracy....

hkt 3y ago

Working class and even middle class people in France (and most of the world) definitely don't have swimming pools. No doubt you're right about the general case, though.

SanderNL 3y ago
Even in the Netherlands it’s not that rare especially outside the metropolitan areas. It’s just cold here so we do different things with the space.
dinkblam 3y ago
Huh? Swimming pools are definitely something middle class people can afford. Just not in a city centre, obviously.
- beebeepka 3y ago
  Damn, how much does it cost to have a decent one in France/Netherlands/where you are. Hope you guys realize you are wealthy.
  - arp242 3y ago
    At the lower end all you need is a tarp, shovel, a hose, and probably a pump to filter the water. You can also build one out of wood (we did this when I was with the scouts, and the biggest cost concern was the price of the water). It doesn't need to be expensive; not every swimming pool has to be a large and fancy.
    - Etrnl_President 3y ago
      [dead]

JCharante 3y ago

Why shouldn't crimes perpetrated by lower and middle class be persecuted? The rich already pay a disproportionately large amount of taxes and then society excuses lower and middle class persons from paying their small share of taxes.

lnsru 3y ago
Rich optimize taxes due to many loopholes in tax system using insanely well paid consultants specializing exactly in that. While middle class gives at least 2/3 of the pre-tax money for taxes, so called insurances and weird things like petrol tax in Germany.
- zo1 3y ago
  I don't want to be snark about it, but why not make a SAAS or product out of such loopholes? Commoditize them, and have economies of scale work. Of course, my first thought as to why that hasn't been possible is because there is a "lower bound" cost to such things that on a meta-level only really works if the rich do it. E.g. the $5k cost and $100k minimum bank balance to have a bank account in tax haven country X, and the $1600 yearly company registration fees to maintain a shell company in country Y.
  - lnsru 3y ago
    I guess client group is rather limited. Salaried employees have to pay taxes. There is no other way. Small businesses can deduct cars and iPhones as expenses and are happy. It gets interesting reaching mid 7 digit revenue zone. But on other hand it is also matter of trust. I have classmates advising about these things, very interesting stuff. Exclusively for real riches.
mandmandam 3y ago
> The rich already pay a disproportionately large amount of taxes INCOME taxes. Which is NOT the same as WEALTH. If you're going to talk about "the rich" then you need to differentiate between the wealthy ownership class (the people who own things like the debt for our 20 trillion dollar illegal wars, or your mortgage), and the software engineers and doctors who get spooked by any talk of raising taxes. This guy explains the issue in simple terms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXP8gH0wddE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXP8gH0wddE - He's British, but it applies to the US also.

ithkuil 3y ago

The main reason I'm ok to have low/middle class pay their fair share of taxes and not have "Schwartzarbeit" is that that's not fair to other low/middle class workers who cannot as easily avoid paying their taxes

contrarian1234 3y ago

This degenerates into worse subjective and discriminatory systems Just think of traffic cops on the highway in the US. If you have big tits and a pretty smile you get off with a warning, but if you're black with resting bitch face then you'll get a ticket or maybe even some K9 action Either enforce laws or get rid of the laws. If you don't have a system to track swimming pools then don't tax swimming pools. In the worse dystopian case (see Russia and a lot of the third world) the endless unenforced laws become a means for the govt to harass people they don't like

sokoloff 3y ago
> If you don't have a system to track swimming pools then don't tax swimming pools. You’ll be happy to learn that France has moved in the direction to comply with your concern here.
- candiodari 3y ago
  How much do you want to bet that 1) There's a 4-5% mistake rate 2) getting a wrong conclusion of the AI turned back is a 2-year kafkaieske nightmare where you have to front all the money, and even after they admit they're wrong it takes 5 years to get your money back. And then next year you get another tax bill for the nonexistent pool and we start from scratch?
  - trilbyglens 3y ago
    I bet they are only flagging locations for physical inspection.
    - candiodari 3y ago
      That doesn't sound like French government at all. Plus that'd be monumentally impractical for them (have you seen how big France is -and how inaccessible parts of it can be?). The reputation of the tax office is that the tiniest of inconveniences is more than enough to prevent them from doing something. Oh and there's the surprisingly little known fact that French citizens torched most of the cars and half of the government departments, including Police stations, in Paris (and Marseille, and Lille, and Toulouse, and ...) on a regular basis for 5 years now. And I bet the recent pension reform is going to make that worse, not better. Government employees physically inspecting anything will result in large scale battles with the public these days. So I would like to add: they won't physically inspect these pools for the simple reason that nobody wants to get killed working for the tax agency in France, and that's exactly what will happen if they go out and physically check.

snthd 3y ago

>but also one of social justice. Illegal employment, or what is called "sort arbejde" in Danish or Schwarzarbeit in German if want a compounded word, allows builders en masse to make a decent wage and is widespread, in Denmark at least. Illegal employment also goes hand in hand with exploitation. https://www.dw.com/en/spains-sea-of-plastic-where-europe-gets-its-produce-migrants-get-exploited/a-47824476 https://www.dw.com/en/spains-sea-of-plastic-where-europe-get... >(2019) The greenhouses of Almeria grow much of Europe's fruits and vegetables. The region's dark secret: Tens of thousands of migrants are apparently taken advantage of to fill supermarket produce sections. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50200217 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50200217 >'Exploited' workers propping up the [UK] building sector (2019) (Maybe the construction industry in the UK is worse for this than Denmark/Germany?) And modern slavery https://www.unseenuk.org/modern-slavery-in-construction-is-on-the-rise/ https://www.unseenuk.org/modern-slavery-in-construction-is-o... >In the EU, construction ranks second only to the sex industry as the sector most prone to modern slavery. Even North Korea is in on it (2016) https://www.dw.com/en/sent-from-north-korea-exploited-in-poland/a-19337859 https://www.dw.com/en/sent-from-north-korea-exploited-in-pol... >Hundreds of North Korean workers are believed to be toiling in Poland under degrading conditions. It's worth remembering that there are more people in slavery than there have ever been. I think we're "blind" to it much the same people must have been at the height of the transatlantic slave trade. It's normal. People are more interested in cheaper products and not paying their tax. On the other hand freedom can't exist without the possibility of crime.

jbm 3y ago
> It's worth remembering that there are more people in slavery than there have ever been Much like drugs. What is it about prohibition that makes a crime more popular?

moltar 3y ago

By the way, Canadian tax office has been cross checking with similarities in the category for a long time. Don’t even need an AI or ML for that.

poisonborz 3y ago

On the other hand, as more law is written in code, the more easier any deviances or unlawful privileges could be detected - including when someone goes around the (open source) algo-based result. Maybe it's naive, but this could also lead to more transparency.

neilwilson 3y ago

Tax authorities already use Benfords law to detect unusual returns.