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Yes. Do you have a point to add to that? Do you feel there’s some reason he’s obviously wrong for example?

yossarian1408 3y ago
Relevant context. Singer has a lot of clout because people read some of his stuff in a first year philosophy class. For those who didn't get the memo that the man is a crazy misanthrope, him taking the idea of infanticide seriously is a pretty good indicator of what his specific grift actually is.
- burgh 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - spacechild1 3y ago
    > A 23 months old human is generally less intelligent than a dog Wow. Do you have any experience with little kids? With 23 months my daughter was drawing pictures, singing songs, laughing at my jokes, reenacting scenes from theater plays, etc.
    - barry-cotter 3y ago
      The question isn’t if 2 year olds are intelligent it’s if dogs are of comparable intelligence to a human 2 year old. They are. > As for language, the average dog can learn 165 words, including signals, and the "super dogs" (those in the top 20 percent of dog intelligence) can learn 250 words, Coren says. "The upper limit of dogs' ability to learn language is partly based on a study of a border collie named Rico who showed knowledge of 200 spoken words and demonstrated 'fast-track learning,' which scientists believed to be found only in humans and language learning apes," Coren said. > Dogs can also count up to four or five, said Coren. And they have a basic understanding of arithmetic and will notice errors in simple computations, such as 1+1=1 or 1+1=3. > Four studies he examined looked how dogs solve spatial problems by modeling human or other dogs' behavior using a barrier type problem. Through observation, Coren said, dogs can learn the location of valued items (treats), better routes in the environment (the fastest way to a favorite chair), how to operate mechanisms (such as latches and simple machines) and the meaning of words and symbolic concepts (sometimes by simply listening to people speak and watching their actions). > During play, dogs are capable of deliberately trying to deceive other dogs and people in order to get rewards, said Coren. "And they are nearly as successful in deceiving humans as humans are in deceiving dogs." https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090810025241.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090810025241.h...
      - spacechild1 3y ago
        I have been replying to OP who literally said: > A 23 months old human is generally less intelligent than a dog and has a consciousness vastly different from us. If the lives of people (and everyone else) got better from killing such a being, then why not? So what is your point? Is today "rationalist edgeloard"-day?
        burgh 3y ago
        [dead]
        spacechild1 3y ago
        In fact, I do acknowledge that many things we do to animals are horrific. But this is just whataboutism. So you are really telling me that you are ok with killing little kids for "utilitarian good" (whatever that is)? You still haven't answered my question: do you have any real-life experience with little kids? I am pretty sure you haven't, otherwise you wouldn't spew such obvious bullshit. Now let's remember what you said in your original post: > Why not take infanticide seriously? A 23 months old human is generally less intelligent than a dog and has a consciousness vastly different from us. Honestly, that's one of the most fucked up things I have ever read on HN. Congratulations!
        burgh 3y ago
        I'm sure it feels like that to a loving parent, especially when you think about your own child. Your feelings are valid.
  - chasd00 3y ago
    a 23 month old human will beg for their life. Doesn't that contradict his position on killing sentient animals?
    - barry-cotter 3y ago
      Do you think dogs and pigs who are aware of what’s about to happen don’t?
      - chasd00 3y ago
        That the point, the author can’t have it both ways.
        barry-cotter 3y ago
        Peter Singer aims for consistency, for not having it both ways. If killing a being of neural structure X is moral then have the same standard for human and non-human animals. He isn’t pretending that being in or out of its mother is morally relevant. If killing a nine month old “fetus” is moral killing a 3 minute old baby is. Singer will bite all those bullets.
spacechild1 3y ago
Are you being serious? Or is this just some wicked kind of sarcasm?
- spacechild1 3y ago
  To the downvoters: do you have any experience with little kids? As a father of a 2 year old, it is pretty obvious what's wrong with infanticide...
  - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
    Well, I am a former embryo and fetus. I was given the opportunity to be born, and so I became pro-life. That seems like a pretty obvious and logical decision.
    - spacechild1 3y ago
      Abortion of a 12 week old fetus is in no way comparable to infanticide. That's the point I am trying to make.
      - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
        What makes it different? Umbilical cord? Immersed in amniotic fluid? Roundly dehumanized and unpersoned by society?
        spacechild1 3y ago
        Do you eat meat?
        NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
        Not on Fridays, no. For many years I've offered this up as a sacrifice for my little brothers and sisters who are murdered because of a "human right". I find it personally revolting that people would assent to my own murder. I am the product of an unplanned pregnancy, and it is mere happenstance that I was not strangled, torn limb from limb, had my skull crushed, and my spine snipped apart at the nape of the neck, then carefully extracted piece by bloody piece, reassembled in a dish (to make sure that nothing was left behind to infect mom - abortions are "safe"), and dumped in a biological waste bin to be incinerated. I escaped that fate, but others do not, so I abstain from meat on every Friday of the year. I do not understand why you and all the others would not assent to my grisly murder as an infant, as a 50-year-old, or perhaps not even as a feeble and helpless 96-year-old hospital patient, but you would readily take up the speculum and scalpel just because I had an umbilical cord attached.

Relevant context. Singer has a lot of clout because people read some of his stuff in a first year philosophy class. For those who didn't get the memo that the man is a crazy misanthrope, him taking the idea of infanticide seriously is a pretty good indicator of what his specific grift actually is.

burgh 3y ago
[flagged]
- spacechild1 3y ago
  > A 23 months old human is generally less intelligent than a dog Wow. Do you have any experience with little kids? With 23 months my daughter was drawing pictures, singing songs, laughing at my jokes, reenacting scenes from theater plays, etc.
  - barry-cotter 3y ago
    The question isn’t if 2 year olds are intelligent it’s if dogs are of comparable intelligence to a human 2 year old. They are. > As for language, the average dog can learn 165 words, including signals, and the "super dogs" (those in the top 20 percent of dog intelligence) can learn 250 words, Coren says. "The upper limit of dogs' ability to learn language is partly based on a study of a border collie named Rico who showed knowledge of 200 spoken words and demonstrated 'fast-track learning,' which scientists believed to be found only in humans and language learning apes," Coren said. > Dogs can also count up to four or five, said Coren. And they have a basic understanding of arithmetic and will notice errors in simple computations, such as 1+1=1 or 1+1=3. > Four studies he examined looked how dogs solve spatial problems by modeling human or other dogs' behavior using a barrier type problem. Through observation, Coren said, dogs can learn the location of valued items (treats), better routes in the environment (the fastest way to a favorite chair), how to operate mechanisms (such as latches and simple machines) and the meaning of words and symbolic concepts (sometimes by simply listening to people speak and watching their actions). > During play, dogs are capable of deliberately trying to deceive other dogs and people in order to get rewards, said Coren. "And they are nearly as successful in deceiving humans as humans are in deceiving dogs." https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090810025241.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090810025241.h...
    - spacechild1 3y ago
      I have been replying to OP who literally said: > A 23 months old human is generally less intelligent than a dog and has a consciousness vastly different from us. If the lives of people (and everyone else) got better from killing such a being, then why not? So what is your point? Is today "rationalist edgeloard"-day?
      - burgh 3y ago
        [dead]
        spacechild1 3y ago
        In fact, I do acknowledge that many things we do to animals are horrific. But this is just whataboutism. So you are really telling me that you are ok with killing little kids for "utilitarian good" (whatever that is)? You still haven't answered my question: do you have any real-life experience with little kids? I am pretty sure you haven't, otherwise you wouldn't spew such obvious bullshit. Now let's remember what you said in your original post: > Why not take infanticide seriously? A 23 months old human is generally less intelligent than a dog and has a consciousness vastly different from us. Honestly, that's one of the most fucked up things I have ever read on HN. Congratulations!
        burgh 3y ago
        I'm sure it feels like that to a loving parent, especially when you think about your own child. Your feelings are valid.
- chasd00 3y ago
  a 23 month old human will beg for their life. Doesn't that contradict his position on killing sentient animals?
  - barry-cotter 3y ago
    Do you think dogs and pigs who are aware of what’s about to happen don’t?
    - chasd00 3y ago
      That the point, the author can’t have it both ways.
      - barry-cotter 3y ago
        Peter Singer aims for consistency, for not having it both ways. If killing a being of neural structure X is moral then have the same standard for human and non-human animals. He isn’t pretending that being in or out of its mother is morally relevant. If killing a nine month old “fetus” is moral killing a 3 minute old baby is. Singer will bite all those bullets.

spacechild1 3y ago

Are you being serious? Or is this just some wicked kind of sarcasm?

spacechild1 3y ago
To the downvoters: do you have any experience with little kids? As a father of a 2 year old, it is pretty obvious what's wrong with infanticide...
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  Well, I am a former embryo and fetus. I was given the opportunity to be born, and so I became pro-life. That seems like a pretty obvious and logical decision.
  - spacechild1 3y ago
    Abortion of a 12 week old fetus is in no way comparable to infanticide. That's the point I am trying to make.
    - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
      What makes it different? Umbilical cord? Immersed in amniotic fluid? Roundly dehumanized and unpersoned by society?
      - spacechild1 3y ago
        Do you eat meat?
        NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
        Not on Fridays, no. For many years I've offered this up as a sacrifice for my little brothers and sisters who are murdered because of a "human right". I find it personally revolting that people would assent to my own murder. I am the product of an unplanned pregnancy, and it is mere happenstance that I was not strangled, torn limb from limb, had my skull crushed, and my spine snipped apart at the nape of the neck, then carefully extracted piece by bloody piece, reassembled in a dish (to make sure that nothing was left behind to infect mom - abortions are "safe"), and dumped in a biological waste bin to be incinerated. I escaped that fate, but others do not, so I abstain from meat on every Friday of the year. I do not understand why you and all the others would not assent to my grisly murder as an infant, as a 50-year-old, or perhaps not even as a feeble and helpless 96-year-old hospital patient, but you would readily take up the speculum and scalpel just because I had an umbilical cord attached.