6 ms·

A potentially insightful line of inquiry that the article does not explore is how and when did the practice of living (or pretending to live) nude end. Its pre

A potentially insightful line of inquiry that the article does not explore is how and when did the practice of living (or pretending to live) nude end. Its pretty clear that the spread of Christianity had dramatic cultural implications way beyond purely metaphysical and religious aspects. A very large package of customs, morals and behaviors (including any hint of nudity) got summarily junked. But there is already the intermediate Roman period where it seems to be less significant. Maybe Roman authors offer some clues.

jeroenhd 3y ago
From what I remember from my classics classes, the Romans weren't all that into running around named as much as the Greeks were, even before Christianity came around. Many Romans revered parts of Greek culture (for a long time Greek was the language of scholars and the elite, which is pretty funny considering that Latin later fulfilled that same role hundreds of years later). Statues and other art were often inspired by Greek masters as well, with references to older Greek art all throughout Roman art. It's not too dissimilar to the artists of the renaissance rediscovering putting their works full of references to Roman and Greek antiquity. However, when it came to the ideals of clothing. The statues and other art works still contained plenty of visible skin, both a Greek influence and proof of a masterful artist, but the romans themselves were often prudes. There was some public nudity, for example in the baths, but day to day work involved wearing tunics (and sometimes togas,which were status symbols). Defeated tribes and slaves were dressed down to humiliate them. Somewhere in time the Greek beliefs and practices fell out of fashion, with the social status as a major driver for change. When you walk around in a robe to announce you're a citizen (most weren't), it's easy to associate those without clothes with lack of status.
- nologic01 3y ago
  > Somewhere in time the Greek beliefs and practices fell out of fashion It is interesting that successor cultures tried to pick and chose elements (for example Byzantines reviving philosophical systems and academies) but in the end it did not stick. While you would think that scientific or artistic concepts like theater are not a take-it-or-leave-it package with e.g. specific customs around nudity or gender roles, in practice social evolution doesnt work like that...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- throw0101b 3y ago
  > Many Romans revered parts of Greek culture (for a long time Greek was the language of scholars and the elite, which is pretty funny considering that Latin later fulfilled that same role hundreds of years later). (Koine) Greek was not particularly "the language of scholars", but mostly the lingua franca of the eastern Mediterranean; Latin was of the western Med. Though the many (and earliest) scholars in that part of town were the Greeks, so it's no surprise that a lot of stuff was written in it. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_Roman_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_Roman_Empire Even when they ruled Jerusalem, the Romans probably spoke Greek with the locals. Because of previous empires, Mesopotamia had several over time (including Aramaic): * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8366156-the-last-lingua-franca https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8366156-the-last-lingua-...
  - prox 3y ago
    I think Livy explicitly mentions that even in Republican times young men went to Greek especially Law was highly regarded.
  - cafard 3y ago
    Well, Marcus Aurelius wrote his meditations in Greek.
  - tipsydoo 3y ago
    It's strange that Egyptian never took off in a similar way, considering that many Greek thinkers received at least some of their education there. Perhaps it was difficult to "port" for some reason (complexity, lack of proper writing materials/equipment, etc.)?
jemmyw 3y ago
I think some of our prudery is quite a bit more recent than that. Baring breasts was common, and at times fashionable, until the 1800s, as was other things that seem unusual now, like men holding hands in friendship.
- soco 3y ago
  Or men wearing heels, makeup and gasp wigs!
- shakow 3y ago
  > Baring breasts was common, and at times fashionable, until the 1800s I can't really think about any of these, at least in Europe; do you have any particular example in mind?
  - tgv 3y ago
    Given that Calvinism dates back to 1550, and the Little Ice Age that started around the same period...
  - Veen 3y ago
    It was quite common for high-status women in the Tudor times. https://www.thehistoricalfictioncompany.com/post/why-did-tudor-women-wear-bare-breasted-dresses https://www.thehistoricalfictioncompany.com/post/why-did-tud... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_cleavage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_cleavage
    - shakow 3y ago
      The wiki link is about cleavage, that is still very much fashionable today as it was centuries ago. The first link does not provide any citation for a couple of paintings, with but one supporting its thesis, and seems to lay most of its assumptions on vague formulations.
  - csomar 3y ago
    Interestingly, I remember when I was young (6-7 year old) it was not common but happened quite a few times that when we go to the beach some woman will go breast nude. It'll be unthinkable for that to happen today without it making it big in social media and the government getting involved. The country in question is Tunisia.
ithkuil 3y ago
Also don't underestimate the amount of Roman influence in what is now considered Cristian morals
Archelaos 3y ago
> including any hint of nudity Not completely. See the Wikipedia article on "Christian naturism" for examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_naturism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_naturism

jeroenhd 3y ago

From what I remember from my classics classes, the Romans weren't all that into running around named as much as the Greeks were, even before Christianity came around. Many Romans revered parts of Greek culture (for a long time Greek was the language of scholars and the elite, which is pretty funny considering that Latin later fulfilled that same role hundreds of years later). Statues and other art were often inspired by Greek masters as well, with references to older Greek art all throughout Roman art. It's not too dissimilar to the artists of the renaissance rediscovering putting their works full of references to Roman and Greek antiquity. However, when it came to the ideals of clothing. The statues and other art works still contained plenty of visible skin, both a Greek influence and proof of a masterful artist, but the romans themselves were often prudes. There was some public nudity, for example in the baths, but day to day work involved wearing tunics (and sometimes togas,which were status symbols). Defeated tribes and slaves were dressed down to humiliate them. Somewhere in time the Greek beliefs and practices fell out of fashion, with the social status as a major driver for change. When you walk around in a robe to announce you're a citizen (most weren't), it's easy to associate those without clothes with lack of status.

nologic01 3y ago
> Somewhere in time the Greek beliefs and practices fell out of fashion It is interesting that successor cultures tried to pick and chose elements (for example Byzantines reviving philosophical systems and academies) but in the end it did not stick. While you would think that scientific or artistic concepts like theater are not a take-it-or-leave-it package with e.g. specific customs around nudity or gender roles, in practice social evolution doesnt work like that...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
throw0101b 3y ago
> Many Romans revered parts of Greek culture (for a long time Greek was the language of scholars and the elite, which is pretty funny considering that Latin later fulfilled that same role hundreds of years later). (Koine) Greek was not particularly "the language of scholars", but mostly the lingua franca of the eastern Mediterranean; Latin was of the western Med. Though the many (and earliest) scholars in that part of town were the Greeks, so it's no surprise that a lot of stuff was written in it. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_Roman_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_Roman_Empire Even when they ruled Jerusalem, the Romans probably spoke Greek with the locals. Because of previous empires, Mesopotamia had several over time (including Aramaic): * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8366156-the-last-lingua-franca https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8366156-the-last-lingua-...
- prox 3y ago
  I think Livy explicitly mentions that even in Republican times young men went to Greek especially Law was highly regarded.
- cafard 3y ago
  Well, Marcus Aurelius wrote his meditations in Greek.
- tipsydoo 3y ago
  It's strange that Egyptian never took off in a similar way, considering that many Greek thinkers received at least some of their education there. Perhaps it was difficult to "port" for some reason (complexity, lack of proper writing materials/equipment, etc.)?

jemmyw 3y ago

I think some of our prudery is quite a bit more recent than that. Baring breasts was common, and at times fashionable, until the 1800s, as was other things that seem unusual now, like men holding hands in friendship.

soco 3y ago
Or men wearing heels, makeup and gasp wigs!
shakow 3y ago
> Baring breasts was common, and at times fashionable, until the 1800s I can't really think about any of these, at least in Europe; do you have any particular example in mind?
- tgv 3y ago
  Given that Calvinism dates back to 1550, and the Little Ice Age that started around the same period...
- Veen 3y ago
  It was quite common for high-status women in the Tudor times. https://www.thehistoricalfictioncompany.com/post/why-did-tudor-women-wear-bare-breasted-dresses https://www.thehistoricalfictioncompany.com/post/why-did-tud... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_cleavage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_cleavage
  - shakow 3y ago
    The wiki link is about cleavage, that is still very much fashionable today as it was centuries ago. The first link does not provide any citation for a couple of paintings, with but one supporting its thesis, and seems to lay most of its assumptions on vague formulations.
- csomar 3y ago
  Interestingly, I remember when I was young (6-7 year old) it was not common but happened quite a few times that when we go to the beach some woman will go breast nude. It'll be unthinkable for that to happen today without it making it big in social media and the government getting involved. The country in question is Tunisia.

ithkuil 3y ago

Also don't underestimate the amount of Roman influence in what is now considered Cristian morals

Archelaos 3y ago

> including any hint of nudity Not completely. See the Wikipedia article on "Christian naturism" for examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_naturism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_naturism