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I for the life of me can't figure out why they are charging so much money for the API. They could do other things such as: - Mandate as part of the TOS[0] that

I for the life of me can't figure out why they are charging so much money for the API. They could do other things such as: - Mandate as part of the TOS[0] that API users must display the ads in the application unless they pay a higher fee. I get alot of people use 3rd party apps to escape ads, but this wouldn't be the end of the world, it also allows the developer some discretion on how the ads can be formatted visually which could actually be a big win for Reddit in some ways. Make all this contingent on app review and auditing of the app. - Work with the community to establish a more reasonable API fee. I'm sure everyone can find an agreement here somehow. All but the smallest players likely would find this agreeable. - Only allow premium (and therefore ad free users) to use 3rd party apps. If they aren't a premium Reddit user they need to use the official client. This seems like the most pragmatic option to me, since those users would by pass ad revenue anyway. [0]: Terms Of Service

mostlysimilar 3y ago
They're either entirely incompetent or they're intentionally driving away 3rd party apps. I can't see any other alternative than that.
- ttctciyf 3y ago
  Maybe they're hoping that future LLM trainers will cough up the crazy prices?
- jsheard 3y ago
  It's pretty obviously the latter, the decision to kill access to NSFW posts via the API while the official apps will (AFAICT) still be able to access them means that 3rd party apps will be on the back foot even if they pay, for no good reason Reddit has been able to articulate. NSFW on Reddit isn't just porn, the tag is used in the literal sense of "your boss wouldn't approve" or as a content warning for violence, heavy subjects, etc. e.g. https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/search?q=nsfw%3Ayes&restrict_sr=on https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/search?q=nsfw%3Ayes&restr...
  - mustacheemperor 3y ago
    This explains the API changes themselves, but not the leadership team's behavior throughout the process. Holding this AMA didn't do anything productive for that objective but resulted in even more foot-in-mouth, now with even more attention than before. Reddit's leadership had the potential headline "3rd party developer claims tiff with reddit administration in post" and took it upon themselves to upgrade it to what's here.
  - M2Ys4U 3y ago
    The two options aren't mutually exclusive, though. It's both, IMO.
  - KennyBlanken 3y ago
    Yeah, I don't think people truly appreciate how valuable the data collected by mobile apps is for selling to marketers and advertising (which can't be blocked anywhere nearly as easily as it can be via browsers.) There's a reason everyone pushes you to install their app; they want all that sweet, sweet time/network/location data and the ability to drive traffic to whatever degree they want via notifications. I believe notifications also allow them to wake their app and collect data at that point in time, which they couldn't ordinarily do because iOS and Android have much more restrictions on background activity?
- Alupis 3y ago
  > or they're intentionally driving away 3rd party apps This doesn't seem to make sense. If Reddit wanted to kill 3rd party apps, they would just disable public API access entirely. The reaction would be basically the same it seems.
  - Spivak 3y ago
    I think they want to collect a few huge checks from large orgs that want to scrape Reddit for their own analysis while also killing 3rd party client access.
    - Alupis 3y ago
      That could be, although I would expect a typical "Call us for a quote" thing if that was the goal.
SkyPuncher 3y ago
LLMs are so valuable that these fees are must be this high to keep them in check. The fundamental problem is they’re not differentiating pricing between data scrapers and user apps. Heck, they don’t even need to display ads in 3rd party apps. Just let me subscribe to Reddits API directly. Let me pay for my monthly usage.
- redox99 3y ago
  LLMs will just scrape the website like they do with the rest of the internet. For Alphabet, Microsoft and some others they don't even need to do that as they already have everything stored for search results.
- vkou 3y ago
  I'm pretty sure Reddit can figure out how to sell API access to LLMs, and how to differentiate that from my 'API access' because I happen to use Reddit through a mobile app.
- robryan 3y ago
  This seems easy, you have limits per client per user.
  - SkyPuncher 3y ago
    There are a bunch a ways around that.
- eulers_secret 3y ago
  Just append .json to any Reddit URL and you'll get a full dump of that page, we'll see if they get rid of this feature as well. Way easier than scraping.
indymike 3y ago
> I for the life of me can't figure out why they are charging so much money for the API They are discontinuing the API, except for a small number of customers willing (maybe) to pay their price for the API.
- no_wizard 3y ago
  I don't think this materially changes anything I posited though.
VWWHFSfQ 3y ago
> allows the developer some discretion on how the ads can be formatted visually this is absolutely the opposite of what they would want. Brands have very tight control over display advertising and would have to approve it everywhere
- no_wizard 3y ago
  I'm thinking more about how it flows in the feeds, not arbitrary control. The nuance is a little hard for me to explain, but basically I just imagine they could do a better job highlighting this is an ad!. Current Reddit default approach makes ads seem like they're from a normal user or its a subreddit. I should've clarified
x0x0 3y ago
> I for the life of me can't figure out why they are charging so much money for the API. The claim (made by several mods) is that they are spending > $10m annually on the API once you include eng effort, and they want a return on the opportunity cost, not just the pure compute cost. Additionally, they've run reddit so shockingly incompetently that they appear to have separate, better APIs that they only allow their internal apps to use. So when they complain about the inefficiency of use of the available APIs, keep that in mind... Clearly, however, they just don't want other frontends. See eg them moving to measuring API calls on a per-app basis, rather than on a per-app per-user basis. It's dumb, imo, to not just say so. And like everything reddit does, this was done wildly incompetently. I'd ask how they could possibly have not thought through the impacts on accessible frontends, or mod tools (which itself demonstrates the fractal incompetence of reddit: why do mods have to build or buy their own tools?), but... well, reddit. NB: so fractally incompetent that they apparently can't even measure api usage and share that with API users in real or near-real time. Like... how. Just how.
micromacrofoot 3y ago
because they want to push people to the first party app to boost userbase and data collection before IPO, it's all more money in their pockets because they're looking at cashing out in the short term and don't care much about the long term in the immediacy people are still going to use reddit either way because there's no easy and popular alternative, just like twitter held on to most users despite all the noise
TranquilMarmot 3y ago
Another reason a lot of users like to use third-party apps and old.reddit.com is to avoid all of the "Coins"/"rewards" and NFT avatars that litter the page these days and make it a distracting experience to try and read comments and posts (which should be front-and-center).
tills13 3y ago
unfortunately all of these options kill the community, really.

mostlysimilar 3y ago

They're either entirely incompetent or they're intentionally driving away 3rd party apps. I can't see any other alternative than that.

ttctciyf 3y ago
Maybe they're hoping that future LLM trainers will cough up the crazy prices?
jsheard 3y ago
It's pretty obviously the latter, the decision to kill access to NSFW posts via the API while the official apps will (AFAICT) still be able to access them means that 3rd party apps will be on the back foot even if they pay, for no good reason Reddit has been able to articulate. NSFW on Reddit isn't just porn, the tag is used in the literal sense of "your boss wouldn't approve" or as a content warning for violence, heavy subjects, etc. e.g. https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/search?q=nsfw%3Ayes&restrict_sr=on https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/search?q=nsfw%3Ayes&restr...
- mustacheemperor 3y ago
  This explains the API changes themselves, but not the leadership team's behavior throughout the process. Holding this AMA didn't do anything productive for that objective but resulted in even more foot-in-mouth, now with even more attention than before. Reddit's leadership had the potential headline "3rd party developer claims tiff with reddit administration in post" and took it upon themselves to upgrade it to what's here.
- M2Ys4U 3y ago
  The two options aren't mutually exclusive, though. It's both, IMO.
- KennyBlanken 3y ago
  Yeah, I don't think people truly appreciate how valuable the data collected by mobile apps is for selling to marketers and advertising (which can't be blocked anywhere nearly as easily as it can be via browsers.) There's a reason everyone pushes you to install their app; they want all that sweet, sweet time/network/location data and the ability to drive traffic to whatever degree they want via notifications. I believe notifications also allow them to wake their app and collect data at that point in time, which they couldn't ordinarily do because iOS and Android have much more restrictions on background activity?
Alupis 3y ago
> or they're intentionally driving away 3rd party apps This doesn't seem to make sense. If Reddit wanted to kill 3rd party apps, they would just disable public API access entirely. The reaction would be basically the same it seems.
- Spivak 3y ago
  I think they want to collect a few huge checks from large orgs that want to scrape Reddit for their own analysis while also killing 3rd party client access.
  - Alupis 3y ago
    That could be, although I would expect a typical "Call us for a quote" thing if that was the goal.

SkyPuncher 3y ago

LLMs are so valuable that these fees are must be this high to keep them in check. The fundamental problem is they’re not differentiating pricing between data scrapers and user apps. Heck, they don’t even need to display ads in 3rd party apps. Just let me subscribe to Reddits API directly. Let me pay for my monthly usage.

redox99 3y ago
LLMs will just scrape the website like they do with the rest of the internet. For Alphabet, Microsoft and some others they don't even need to do that as they already have everything stored for search results.
vkou 3y ago
I'm pretty sure Reddit can figure out how to sell API access to LLMs, and how to differentiate that from my 'API access' because I happen to use Reddit through a mobile app.
robryan 3y ago
This seems easy, you have limits per client per user.
- SkyPuncher 3y ago
  There are a bunch a ways around that.
eulers_secret 3y ago
Just append .json to any Reddit URL and you'll get a full dump of that page, we'll see if they get rid of this feature as well. Way easier than scraping.

indymike 3y ago

> I for the life of me can't figure out why they are charging so much money for the API They are discontinuing the API, except for a small number of customers willing (maybe) to pay their price for the API.

no_wizard 3y ago
I don't think this materially changes anything I posited though.

VWWHFSfQ 3y ago

> allows the developer some discretion on how the ads can be formatted visually this is absolutely the opposite of what they would want. Brands have very tight control over display advertising and would have to approve it everywhere

no_wizard 3y ago
I'm thinking more about how it flows in the feeds, not arbitrary control. The nuance is a little hard for me to explain, but basically I just imagine they could do a better job highlighting this is an ad!. Current Reddit default approach makes ads seem like they're from a normal user or its a subreddit. I should've clarified

x0x0 3y ago

> I for the life of me can't figure out why they are charging so much money for the API. The claim (made by several mods) is that they are spending > $10m annually on the API once you include eng effort, and they want a return on the opportunity cost, not just the pure compute cost. Additionally, they've run reddit so shockingly incompetently that they appear to have separate, better APIs that they only allow their internal apps to use. So when they complain about the inefficiency of use of the available APIs, keep that in mind... Clearly, however, they just don't want other frontends. See eg them moving to measuring API calls on a per-app basis, rather than on a per-app per-user basis. It's dumb, imo, to not just say so. And like everything reddit does, this was done wildly incompetently. I'd ask how they could possibly have not thought through the impacts on accessible frontends, or mod tools (which itself demonstrates the fractal incompetence of reddit: why do mods have to build or buy their own tools?), but... well, reddit. NB: so fractally incompetent that they apparently can't even measure api usage and share that with API users in real or near-real time. Like... how. Just how.

micromacrofoot 3y ago

because they want to push people to the first party app to boost userbase and data collection before IPO, it's all more money in their pockets because they're looking at cashing out in the short term and don't care much about the long term in the immediacy people are still going to use reddit either way because there's no easy and popular alternative, just like twitter held on to most users despite all the noise

TranquilMarmot 3y ago

Another reason a lot of users like to use third-party apps and old.reddit.com is to avoid all of the "Coins"/"rewards" and NFT avatars that litter the page these days and make it a distracting experience to try and read comments and posts (which should be front-and-center).

tills13 3y ago

unfortunately all of these options kill the community, really.