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John C. Dvorak is famous for bad takes. But if you’re alluding to Apple Vision being successful because he was an iPhone naysayer, you’re wrong. Reality doesn’t

by i386 3y ago

John C. Dvorak is famous for bad takes. But if you’re alluding to Apple Vision being successful because he was an iPhone naysayer, you’re wrong. Reality doesn’t work that way. The jury is still out on VR and it changes little when Apple enters the market at that price point and there’s not a killer problem for it.

mjamesaustin 3y ago
Many analysts and pundits aren't acting like the jury's still out, though. Similarly to the iPhone, many who haven't touched it are reporting it DOA, even as some people are leaving actual demos with intensely positive reviews.
- i386 3y ago
  The iPhone solved an incredibly useful problem because it put the internet in your pocket. No one has a “computer room” at home. What is the problem that the vision solves? I can watch TV on a huge screen in my living room? I already have a large screen in my living room. It’s like stuff I can already easily do but with extra steps and a $3500 US price tag.
  - rado 3y ago
    It's the next step in Apple's consistent strategy to diminish the physical device and enhance its services (computing). iMac: where did the computer go? Vision: there is no TV, but the TV watching experience is great.
  - dharmab 3y ago
    I have both a media room and work computer room. My parents have two computer rooms. My sister want a room when she can get a house. Many of my friends have dedicated rooms for computers.
  - geon 3y ago
    The keynote was certainly weird. It seems they imagine it being used to run regular 2d apps.
    - i386 3y ago
      You know, I didn’t even think of that and it indeed is weird
  - WTFruit 3y ago
    I’m at a job where, for the first time in my life, I’m desperate for screen real estate. Up until now I’ve been quite happy with a 15” laptop, I never even felt the need to have a bigger screen than that let alone multiple monitors, but just yesterday I set up a third 24” monitor because the two my job started me with didn’t feel like enough. Replacing those with a headset would not only give me even MORE room to work with, but it would also save room and clutter in my home because I have a small desk in a small space. As for TV, it doesn’t matter how big your screen is… a headset can always go bigger, give you better 3D, and do better sound as well unless you already have a surround sound setup. Which you may, but many of us don’t have any of those things. The only real downside I see is the inability to watch with someone, but if my wife and I could both wear headsets and sit on the couch together while ALSO both being in a shared virtual space, somewhere exotic with a giant theatre-size screen? Sounds pretty compelling to me.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - layer8 3y ago
      But are you willing to wear a front-heavy pound of tech on your head all day for that? Maybe you are, but I wager few will. The counter then is that the tech will get more compact and lighter. Well, maybe, or maybe not as much, let’s see in a couple of years.
      - wenc 3y ago
        If there’s a good “why”, the “how” is merely iteration and execution. Apple has been known to be extremely good at materials science and hardware engineering so if it’s within the bounds of physics and economies I don’t think that’s remotely a concern.
        layer8 3y ago
        Yeah, I think the bounds of physics and engineering will be a serious challenge.
  - Scotrix 3y ago
    Let’s assume it’s comfortable to wear (Oculus and Quest weren’t for the long run), works without issues and smooth and that I would expect at least from Apple even though it seems that they put every year a little less attention to detail (okay it’s still 90% better than anything else but i think this matters for a device and state of this category really a lot) it will have a good chance to replace all my screens (3 plus laptop and tv) and I’ll get very excited and buckle up the hefty price…
  - dan-dan 3y ago
    This puts screen real estate in your pocket/bag. Also gesture and eye control.
    - i386 3y ago
      No one asked to do gesture and eye control. With the iPhone did want to check their email on the go tho and look at websites. That worked.
- coldcode 3y ago
  It's not out yet, anyway. Dismissing something that won't ship for another 8 months is not useful. The Dvorak article was likewise before shipping. I've heard this for everything Apple ever did since the Bondi iMac. I don't look at it as a headset but as a new kind of computer-like device with included display, and it's not even 1.0 yet. The cost seems crazy, but my Mac Studio+Display cost me more. If you think of it as equivalent to that, it's not all that out of line. Now imagine what it will become, similar to how the iPhone changed massively over the years.
  - i386 3y ago
    Maybe. This isn’t the Jobsian apple. This is the supply chain guys first product call. The jury is still out.
henrikschroder 3y ago
I agree. The iPhone came out in 2007, and that year over a billion cell phones were sold. That's a solid market that Apple entered, and the iPhone brought obvious improvements over existing devices. Apple solved the problem of wanting a large screen, a full keyboard, in a small device. That was an existing pain-point, they solved it, everyone understood that this was the future of cell phones. In 2022, there were 20 million VR devices sold globally. Apple has now entered this market with a device that's 10x as expensive as the competition, and one that doesn't solve any existing obvious pain points. The iPhone out-competed dumb phones and communicators and blackberries and stylus notepads and, eventually, pocket cameras. It did all of that, better, in one device. What exactly is the Apple Vision replacing in an obviously better way? If I buy one, what device can I throw away? I have yet to see an answer to that question.
- Someone 3y ago
  > That was an existing pain-point, they solved it, everyone understood that this was the future of cell phones. Not everyone. The article being discussed is an extreme, but there were many similar opinions along these lines, for example form people claiming the lack of a physical keyboard would kill this as a business phone.
- ekam 3y ago
  Apple isn't there right now, but the ultimate goal appears to replace computers, phones, and monitors, which is why Vision has a laptop card and operates independently. It's not born of the same concept as eg, a Meta quest which is more gaming oriented.
  - henrikschroder 3y ago
    > but the ultimate goal appears to replace computers, phones, and monitors This is a completely empty statement. That's a flimsy corporate wish. Do you not understand how completely different the introduction of the iPhone into the mobile phone market was, compared to the introduction of Apple Vision to the VR market? The iPhone introduced with concrete examples of what it could do that the competition could not, it wasn't half-baked and aspirational, it solved existing problems, it was better than the devices that billions of people were already carrying around in their pockets from the start. I'm writing this comment from my home office. To my right is a window where I can look out on the street below, I see cars and people, I see birds flying over the trees, and a couple of blocks away is the beach and the ocean. It's a pretty view. I can relax my eyes and my brain and look away from work or HN for a bit. How does Apple vision improve this experience?

by i386 3y ago

mjamesaustin 3y ago

Many analysts and pundits aren't acting like the jury's still out, though. Similarly to the iPhone, many who haven't touched it are reporting it DOA, even as some people are leaving actual demos with intensely positive reviews.

i386 3y ago
The iPhone solved an incredibly useful problem because it put the internet in your pocket. No one has a “computer room” at home. What is the problem that the vision solves? I can watch TV on a huge screen in my living room? I already have a large screen in my living room. It’s like stuff I can already easily do but with extra steps and a $3500 US price tag.
- rado 3y ago
  It's the next step in Apple's consistent strategy to diminish the physical device and enhance its services (computing). iMac: where did the computer go? Vision: there is no TV, but the TV watching experience is great.
- dharmab 3y ago
  I have both a media room and work computer room. My parents have two computer rooms. My sister want a room when she can get a house. Many of my friends have dedicated rooms for computers.
- geon 3y ago
  The keynote was certainly weird. It seems they imagine it being used to run regular 2d apps.
  - i386 3y ago
    You know, I didn’t even think of that and it indeed is weird
- WTFruit 3y ago
  I’m at a job where, for the first time in my life, I’m desperate for screen real estate. Up until now I’ve been quite happy with a 15” laptop, I never even felt the need to have a bigger screen than that let alone multiple monitors, but just yesterday I set up a third 24” monitor because the two my job started me with didn’t feel like enough. Replacing those with a headset would not only give me even MORE room to work with, but it would also save room and clutter in my home because I have a small desk in a small space. As for TV, it doesn’t matter how big your screen is… a headset can always go bigger, give you better 3D, and do better sound as well unless you already have a surround sound setup. Which you may, but many of us don’t have any of those things. The only real downside I see is the inability to watch with someone, but if my wife and I could both wear headsets and sit on the couch together while ALSO both being in a shared virtual space, somewhere exotic with a giant theatre-size screen? Sounds pretty compelling to me.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - layer8 3y ago
    But are you willing to wear a front-heavy pound of tech on your head all day for that? Maybe you are, but I wager few will. The counter then is that the tech will get more compact and lighter. Well, maybe, or maybe not as much, let’s see in a couple of years.
    - wenc 3y ago
      If there’s a good “why”, the “how” is merely iteration and execution. Apple has been known to be extremely good at materials science and hardware engineering so if it’s within the bounds of physics and economies I don’t think that’s remotely a concern.
      - layer8 3y ago
        Yeah, I think the bounds of physics and engineering will be a serious challenge.
- Scotrix 3y ago
  Let’s assume it’s comfortable to wear (Oculus and Quest weren’t for the long run), works without issues and smooth and that I would expect at least from Apple even though it seems that they put every year a little less attention to detail (okay it’s still 90% better than anything else but i think this matters for a device and state of this category really a lot) it will have a good chance to replace all my screens (3 plus laptop and tv) and I’ll get very excited and buckle up the hefty price…
- dan-dan 3y ago
  This puts screen real estate in your pocket/bag. Also gesture and eye control.
  - i386 3y ago
    No one asked to do gesture and eye control. With the iPhone did want to check their email on the go tho and look at websites. That worked.
coldcode 3y ago
It's not out yet, anyway. Dismissing something that won't ship for another 8 months is not useful. The Dvorak article was likewise before shipping. I've heard this for everything Apple ever did since the Bondi iMac. I don't look at it as a headset but as a new kind of computer-like device with included display, and it's not even 1.0 yet. The cost seems crazy, but my Mac Studio+Display cost me more. If you think of it as equivalent to that, it's not all that out of line. Now imagine what it will become, similar to how the iPhone changed massively over the years.
- i386 3y ago
  Maybe. This isn’t the Jobsian apple. This is the supply chain guys first product call. The jury is still out.

henrikschroder 3y ago

I agree. The iPhone came out in 2007, and that year over a billion cell phones were sold. That's a solid market that Apple entered, and the iPhone brought obvious improvements over existing devices. Apple solved the problem of wanting a large screen, a full keyboard, in a small device. That was an existing pain-point, they solved it, everyone understood that this was the future of cell phones. In 2022, there were 20 million VR devices sold globally. Apple has now entered this market with a device that's 10x as expensive as the competition, and one that doesn't solve any existing obvious pain points. The iPhone out-competed dumb phones and communicators and blackberries and stylus notepads and, eventually, pocket cameras. It did all of that, better, in one device. What exactly is the Apple Vision replacing in an obviously better way? If I buy one, what device can I throw away? I have yet to see an answer to that question.

Someone 3y ago
> That was an existing pain-point, they solved it, everyone understood that this was the future of cell phones. Not everyone. The article being discussed is an extreme, but there were many similar opinions along these lines, for example form people claiming the lack of a physical keyboard would kill this as a business phone.
ekam 3y ago
Apple isn't there right now, but the ultimate goal appears to replace computers, phones, and monitors, which is why Vision has a laptop card and operates independently. It's not born of the same concept as eg, a Meta quest which is more gaming oriented.
- henrikschroder 3y ago
  > but the ultimate goal appears to replace computers, phones, and monitors This is a completely empty statement. That's a flimsy corporate wish. Do you not understand how completely different the introduction of the iPhone into the mobile phone market was, compared to the introduction of Apple Vision to the VR market? The iPhone introduced with concrete examples of what it could do that the competition could not, it wasn't half-baked and aspirational, it solved existing problems, it was better than the devices that billions of people were already carrying around in their pockets from the start. I'm writing this comment from my home office. To my right is a window where I can look out on the street below, I see cars and people, I see birds flying over the trees, and a couple of blocks away is the beach and the ocean. It's a pretty view. I can relax my eyes and my brain and look away from work or HN for a bit. How does Apple vision improve this experience?