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As far as I'm concerned, the "new web" (Reddit, Twitter, etc. etc.) #1 ability that was not present in "the old web" (USENET, IRC, etc. etc.) is universal ident

As far as I'm concerned, the "new web" (Reddit, Twitter, etc. etc.) #1 ability that was not present in "the old web" (USENET, IRC, etc. etc.) is universal identifiers. If a problematic user on Reddits r/news gets banned (spam or whatever), there are admin-level bans that can ban that user at a global level. Allowing unrelated moderators on one subreddit indirectly-help moderate on other subreddits. Shared global identity across the network is key. We can't have sockpuppets spamming one subreddit (or USENET group), and then have to be individually dealt with group-by-group. These sorts of moderation efforts must be shared. Mastodon's model is to have servers responsible for their users. I'm not convinced that this model scales well, especially into the future as servers grow less trusting of each other. --------------- IMO, what is needed is a DNS-like solution for identities, and proving your identity. Not a real identity mind you, but a pseudo-anonymous identity that has enough trust that people know you're not a spammer. Yes, modern sockpuppets can pay a 3rd-world country to create innocuous accounts en masse and get around this, but we need to be at this level (or better). Without this level, we're back to just automated account creation bots spamming our servers with spam. ---------------- This DNS-like identity management server needs moderation decisions to be shared. Not necessarily trusted mind you, but shared enough so that "Moderators over in X-location believe this identity to be spam". Or "Moderators over in Y-location believe this identity to be a troll". EDIT: Other messages, like "Starting on June 2023, it appears that X-identity has been compromised and is now a spammer. Ban messages after this. Starting in July 2023, it appears X-identity has regained control of their identifier and we can stop banning their messages." Lots of useful moderation messages that need to be shared. Maybe its up to individual communities whether or not "troll" or "spam" classifications of identities (or if the moderators at Y-server should be trusted at all: maybe a hostile group of moderators start putting up fake complaints about masses of users that they don't like). Etc. etc. ----------------- But the overall goal is to create a mechanism where moderators are sharing effort and working together. Reddit accidentally provided that, and that's why it was better than USENET. That's probably the only incremental improvement that mattered in the long run.

topspin 3y ago
> what is needed is a DNS-like solution for identities did:dns perhaps: https://danubetech.github.io/did-method-dns/ https://danubetech.github.io/did-method-dns/
jstarfish 3y ago
We have global identities-- IPv4/6 address. v6 moreso than v4. I'm aware of the problems with CGNAT and v4, but [TEMPORARILY, as a cooldown!] banning IPs does work. With as many people as there are on the internet now, it's surpassed the ability of a handful of moderators anywhere to deal with. AI is too expensive and the first solutions are just going to involve everyone piping every comment, post and submission through OpenAI for free training anyway. At some level OpenAI will be perversely incentivized to hire spammers to drive business for themselves by pushing sites past free-tier usage. Collateral damage may well be the solution to curtailing abuse in the future. For IPv4 for the most part, only individual users' IPs should be affected unless they're part of a botnet, but when nobody can use any site because trolls have gotten entire telcos' IPv4 space banned, at some point the trolls are going to have to accept what their impact is and change their behavior because other trolls are impacting their own ability to enjoy anything. Socialize the abuse and crowdsource punishment (not normally my thing, but we've tried everything else). If you shit where you eat, expect shit in your next bite. When someone brags about pointless mischief, rather than being cheered on as some kind of rebel, they will get a lesson in socialization. They will be outed as the reason why nobody in their country can access 4chan anymore and be dealt with. This doesn't work while we exempt M247's address space because "normal" users insist on using the same infrastructure as trolls and cybercriminals, exempt all of Tor because there might be a gay user in Iran who can't keep their mouth shut, or refuse to block the IP of a problem user in the Philippines because it's shared by everyone in Malaysia. Accommodating exceptional people (no sarcasm, in the kindest terms) has made things exceptionally insufferable for everyone else. This will drive fragmentation. It is a good thing. If one person can get all of Malaysia banned from Reddit 2.0 or whatever, after everyone is denied for long enough it will drive creation of smaller, local communities instead of massive, centralized ones. This is what we want, right? The most dedicated troll would have to do actual work to find, infiltrate and harass every single offshoot community that develops as a result. The cost of trolling is now borne by the troll, not the responders. It also increases the cost and effort involved in surveillance. Right now, if you want to track anyone, start with a FAANG product and work outward. Within a generation, we became afraid of punishing anybody for any reason, so small wonder the lunatics are running the asylum. The internet fucking sucks these days. It feels like a mental hospital-- sterile, boring, with crazies everywhere screaming all the time threatening to kill everyone or themselves. Basically downtown Atlanta after hours, just with less piss flowing everywhere. If we want the old internet back, play by old internet rules. IP addresses are just numbers, ASNs are not people and the women are all men. Don't accept traffic from problem sources. Ignore the complaints unless they're from people helping to pay your hosting fees.

topspin 3y ago

> what is needed is a DNS-like solution for identities did:dns perhaps: https://danubetech.github.io/did-method-dns/ https://danubetech.github.io/did-method-dns/

jstarfish 3y ago

We have global identities-- IPv4/6 address. v6 moreso than v4. I'm aware of the problems with CGNAT and v4, but [TEMPORARILY, as a cooldown!] banning IPs does work. With as many people as there are on the internet now, it's surpassed the ability of a handful of moderators anywhere to deal with. AI is too expensive and the first solutions are just going to involve everyone piping every comment, post and submission through OpenAI for free training anyway. At some level OpenAI will be perversely incentivized to hire spammers to drive business for themselves by pushing sites past free-tier usage. Collateral damage may well be the solution to curtailing abuse in the future. For IPv4 for the most part, only individual users' IPs should be affected unless they're part of a botnet, but when nobody can use any site because trolls have gotten entire telcos' IPv4 space banned, at some point the trolls are going to have to accept what their impact is and change their behavior because other trolls are impacting their own ability to enjoy anything. Socialize the abuse and crowdsource punishment (not normally my thing, but we've tried everything else). If you shit where you eat, expect shit in your next bite. When someone brags about pointless mischief, rather than being cheered on as some kind of rebel, they will get a lesson in socialization. They will be outed as the reason why nobody in their country can access 4chan anymore and be dealt with. This doesn't work while we exempt M247's address space because "normal" users insist on using the same infrastructure as trolls and cybercriminals, exempt all of Tor because there might be a gay user in Iran who can't keep their mouth shut, or refuse to block the IP of a problem user in the Philippines because it's shared by everyone in Malaysia. Accommodating exceptional people (no sarcasm, in the kindest terms) has made things exceptionally insufferable for everyone else. This will drive fragmentation. It is a good thing. If one person can get all of Malaysia banned from Reddit 2.0 or whatever, after everyone is denied for long enough it will drive creation of smaller, local communities instead of massive, centralized ones. This is what we want, right? The most dedicated troll would have to do actual work to find, infiltrate and harass every single offshoot community that develops as a result. The cost of trolling is now borne by the troll, not the responders. It also increases the cost and effort involved in surveillance. Right now, if you want to track anyone, start with a FAANG product and work outward. Within a generation, we became afraid of punishing anybody for any reason, so small wonder the lunatics are running the asylum. The internet fucking sucks these days. It feels like a mental hospital-- sterile, boring, with crazies everywhere screaming all the time threatening to kill everyone or themselves. Basically downtown Atlanta after hours, just with less piss flowing everywhere. If we want the old internet back, play by old internet rules. IP addresses are just numbers, ASNs are not people and the women are all men. Don't accept traffic from problem sources. Ignore the complaints unless they're from people helping to pay your hosting fees.