4 ms·

That's ignorant, I own thousands of both Marvel and DC comics from the 90s and 2000s.

by the_doctah 3y ago

wnevets 3y ago
Not as ignorant as claiming Disney is ruining Marvel by "pushing progressive ideologies"
mcphage 3y ago
And yet you didn't notice that progressive ideology was a big part of Marvel's entire existence?
- the_doctah 3y ago
  Yes, I know because Stan Lee created the X-men, people love to claim Marvel was always super progressive. I'm sorry, but that simply is not the case, and you are wrong. 99% of comic books I own have zero trace of your supposed progressivism.
  - wnevets 3y ago
    What's an example of Disney "progressivism" that didn't exist in Pre-Disney Marvel?
    - the_doctah 3y ago
      Race and gender swapping every established popular character? Checklist casting? Butchering She-Hulk and The Wasp with this insane "girl boss" fetish (Let's not forget the cringe girlboss moment from Endgame)? Making shows like "Echo" and "Agatha Harkness" that appeal to almost no one for the sake of having female leads? This isn't even considering the comics, which as an industry, has been dying because of all the same behaviors. Last I heard The Punisher's wife came back from the dead to berate him for killing people and to divorce him. Who wants to read that tripe? Who wants to listen to Ant-man's annoying daughter lecture people? No one.
      - wnevets 3y ago
        > Race and gender swapping every established popular character? What exactly makes that "progressivism"? Also why don't you consider characters like X-23 a gender swapped Wolverine?
        the_doctah 3y ago
        You don't think diversity is progressive? Also, yes of course I consider X-23 to be a gender swapped Wolverine.
        wnevets 3y ago
        Not only is "diversity" not new for Marvel but X-23 was created prior to the Disney purchase.
        the_doctah 3y ago
        One data point does not make a trend. Post-Disney is when the trend started. Also a downward trend... of sales.
        wnevets 3y ago
        > One data point does not make a trend. How many have to exist before it can be considered "progressivism"/"diversity" then? Also can you provide those examples that occurred post-Disney? As a huge marvel fan it should be easy for you do. As someone who isn't a huge marvel fan I can think of several off the top of my head that occurred pre-Disney.
        the_doctah 3y ago
        Miles Morales (Spider-Man), original character: Peter Parker/Spider-Man, first appearance: 2011 Jane Foster (Thor), original character: Thor Odinson, first appearance: 2014 Riri Williams (Ironheart), original character: Tony Stark/Iron Man, first appearance: 2016 Laura Kinney (X-23), original character: Logan/Wolverine, first appearance: 2004 Sam Wilson (Captain America), original character: Steve Rogers/Captain America, first appearance: 2014 Carol Danvers (Captain Marvel), original character: Mar-Vell/Captain Marvel, first appearance: 2012 Monica Rambeau (Captain Marvel), original character: Mar-Vell/Captain Marvel, first appearance: 1982 America Chavez (Miss America), original character: Joey Chapman/Miss America, first appearance: 2011 Kamala Khan (Ms. Marvel), original character: Carol Danvers/Ms. Marvel, first appearance: 2013 Kate Bishop (Hawkeye), original character: Clint Barton/Hawkeye, first appearance: 2005 Gwen Stacy (Spider-Woman, aka Spider-Gwen), original character: Peter Parker/Spider-Man, first appearance: 2014
  - TMWNN 3y ago
    >Yes, I know because Stan Lee created the X-men, people love to claim Marvel was always super progressive. I'm sorry, but that simply is not the case, and you are wrong. 99% of comic books I own have zero trace of your supposed progressivism. Correct. Marvel and DC comics up to a few years ago, and the pre-Discovery Star Trek franchise, shared a broad-church liberal view of the world. Stories that explicitly pushed an agenda for the sake of agenda-pushing were mocked by fans, and other writers would ignore them or explicitly retcon the stories out. Now we have (no joke) a transvestite member of the Legion of Super-Heroes travel 1000 years to the present day to march in a Pride parade.

That's ignorant, I own thousands of both Marvel and DC comics from the 90s and 2000s.

wnevets 3y ago

Not as ignorant as claiming Disney is ruining Marvel by "pushing progressive ideologies"

mcphage 3y ago

And yet you didn't notice that progressive ideology was a big part of Marvel's entire existence?

the_doctah 3y ago
Yes, I know because Stan Lee created the X-men, people love to claim Marvel was always super progressive. I'm sorry, but that simply is not the case, and you are wrong. 99% of comic books I own have zero trace of your supposed progressivism.
- wnevets 3y ago
  What's an example of Disney "progressivism" that didn't exist in Pre-Disney Marvel?
  - the_doctah 3y ago
    Race and gender swapping every established popular character? Checklist casting? Butchering She-Hulk and The Wasp with this insane "girl boss" fetish (Let's not forget the cringe girlboss moment from Endgame)? Making shows like "Echo" and "Agatha Harkness" that appeal to almost no one for the sake of having female leads? This isn't even considering the comics, which as an industry, has been dying because of all the same behaviors. Last I heard The Punisher's wife came back from the dead to berate him for killing people and to divorce him. Who wants to read that tripe? Who wants to listen to Ant-man's annoying daughter lecture people? No one.
    - wnevets 3y ago
      > Race and gender swapping every established popular character? What exactly makes that "progressivism"? Also why don't you consider characters like X-23 a gender swapped Wolverine?
      - the_doctah 3y ago
        You don't think diversity is progressive? Also, yes of course I consider X-23 to be a gender swapped Wolverine.
        wnevets 3y ago
        Not only is "diversity" not new for Marvel but X-23 was created prior to the Disney purchase.
        the_doctah 3y ago
        One data point does not make a trend. Post-Disney is when the trend started. Also a downward trend... of sales.
        wnevets 3y ago
        > One data point does not make a trend. How many have to exist before it can be considered "progressivism"/"diversity" then? Also can you provide those examples that occurred post-Disney? As a huge marvel fan it should be easy for you do. As someone who isn't a huge marvel fan I can think of several off the top of my head that occurred pre-Disney.
        the_doctah 3y ago
        Miles Morales (Spider-Man), original character: Peter Parker/Spider-Man, first appearance: 2011 Jane Foster (Thor), original character: Thor Odinson, first appearance: 2014 Riri Williams (Ironheart), original character: Tony Stark/Iron Man, first appearance: 2016 Laura Kinney (X-23), original character: Logan/Wolverine, first appearance: 2004 Sam Wilson (Captain America), original character: Steve Rogers/Captain America, first appearance: 2014 Carol Danvers (Captain Marvel), original character: Mar-Vell/Captain Marvel, first appearance: 2012 Monica Rambeau (Captain Marvel), original character: Mar-Vell/Captain Marvel, first appearance: 1982 America Chavez (Miss America), original character: Joey Chapman/Miss America, first appearance: 2011 Kamala Khan (Ms. Marvel), original character: Carol Danvers/Ms. Marvel, first appearance: 2013 Kate Bishop (Hawkeye), original character: Clint Barton/Hawkeye, first appearance: 2005 Gwen Stacy (Spider-Woman, aka Spider-Gwen), original character: Peter Parker/Spider-Man, first appearance: 2014
- TMWNN 3y ago
  >Yes, I know because Stan Lee created the X-men, people love to claim Marvel was always super progressive. I'm sorry, but that simply is not the case, and you are wrong. 99% of comic books I own have zero trace of your supposed progressivism. Correct. Marvel and DC comics up to a few years ago, and the pre-Discovery Star Trek franchise, shared a broad-church liberal view of the world. Stories that explicitly pushed an agenda for the sake of agenda-pushing were mocked by fans, and other writers would ignore them or explicitly retcon the stories out. Now we have (no joke) a transvestite member of the Legion of Super-Heroes travel 1000 years to the present day to march in a Pride parade.