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> “The problem isn’t Kathleen Kennedy.” I am not entirely sure that matters. Pissed-off fans undoubtedly want to see metaphorical blood for what, to their eyes

> “The problem isn’t Kathleen Kennedy.” I am not entirely sure that matters. Pissed-off fans undoubtedly want to see metaphorical blood for what, to their eyes, was a forced, ideologically-driven tarnishing of their childhood memories. At the end of the day, the buck stops at the top. Chapman was already punted as a general scapegoat, but is it enough?

Timon3 3y ago
> a forced, ideologically-driven tarnishing of their childhood memories I'm sure there is a minority that believes this, but the majority know that there is no ideological drive, only a greed one. Alignment with current social issues happens based on calculations of profit, not based on sincere ideological commitment. Making good movies is hard, making movies following current social issues is easy. Both bring money, one is a lot more consistent - and the negative press keeps the properties in the media far longer than they usually would.
- garbagecoder 3y ago
  Definitely some people were put off by the ideological bent to it. I found it slightly grating (and I'm a center-left type), but I could have excused it if there was anything else to the films. The first one seemed promising if finished, but the rest were just sloppy. In other words, it's not like an unwoke version of those films would have been good. Like, they resorted to bringing Palpatine back. That's not being fixed by changing Finn's race, Rey's gender, or that one chick's hair color or whatever else people are upset about who stole the Picard Maneuver. Every popular movie gets leveled with some criticism about its politics. But just like most of my computing tools, I really care more about whether they work than whether the company posts a logo I agree or disagree with. Here the second two especially were just trash movies that put the elements of the universe in a blender.
  - norwalkbear 3y ago
    Making it less woke would have made it successful with one simple trick . Let Luke be a positive male hero.
    - Timon3 3y ago
      What does "less woke" have to do with "positive male hero"? Do you think there is no woke media with positive male heroes? Do you believe all non-woke media has positive male heroes? The best positive male representation I've seen was on very progressive (what you'd call "woke") shows.
    - garbagecoder 3y ago
      I agree that making Luke turn out better would have been one of many keys to its improvement, but I don't think that was done to be woke. If anything it was more regurgitation. They felt like he needed a hermit phase like Obi Wan. Also, there were supposed to be positive male heroes in it, right? Finn, even Kylo Ren in the end, and the guy whose name I forget that's the pilot. Having one of the key characters be a female hero goes back to A New Hope so I'm not sure if this is actually a good faith complaint.
      - cruxluna 3y ago
        [dead]
- intalentive 3y ago
  > Alignment with current social issues happens based on calculations of profit, not based on sincere ideological commitment. Yeah, Bud Light was just “calculating profit” when it alienated its customer base.
  - stuckinhell 3y ago
    The Bud Light controversy is absolutely stunning, and is affecting my job in directional planning. I don't think any high level executive saw that coming.
  - Timon3 3y ago
    Yes, they did. They had a calculated marketing campaign where they paid various influencers to market towards their respective audiences. I'm sure they made a risk analysis - and if you look at other transgender influencers paid by other companies who were spared this moral outcry, you'll see that it's more bad luck than anything else that the conserviative media machine focused so much on them.
    - norwalkbear 3y ago
      I don't think so. Gay Marriage bills didn't even pass in California, or 29 other states. The supreme court overturned the will of Americans (btw I'm French). It's clear American elites are far far more liberal progressive than the American people themselves. The country that had Nixon win in a landslide, brought Trump too.
      - Timon3 3y ago
        Luckily that's very easy to disprove, since we have statistics about the amount of Americans supporting e.g. same-sex marriage: in November 2022, 61% of Americans saw it as a net positive. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/11/15/about-six-in-ten-americans-say-legalization-of-same-sex-marriage-is-good-for-society/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/11/15/about-six...
        3y ago
- the_doctah 3y ago
  >Alignment with current social issues happens based on calculations of profit, not based on sincere ideological commitment. I guess they need to do a better job with their market research. Because destroying Luke Skywalker and redefining the Mary Sue trope doesn't seem like what the public wanted.
  - Timon3 3y ago
    Did you read my previous comment? I explained reasonably clearly that they didn't focus on making a good movie. You yourself are saying that destroying Luke Skywalker and redefining the Mary Sue trope doesn't seem like what the public wanted. But I'll guarantee you that there was a lot of market research which determined that: - strong female leads are popular - "defying expectations" is popular - Marvel style humor is popular And when you put those things together without caring about making a good movie, you will do things like destroying Luke Skywalker, or redefining the Mary Sue trope. These things didn't happen because they wanted them to happen, they happened because they didn't care enough to not make them happen.
    - the_doctah 3y ago
      Your comments about what Disney thinks is popular amount to nothing but conjecture on your part. Meanwhile, the sequels were not well received by fans. And, while I'm certain you would make the argument about the movies making money, they underperformed with regards to expectations. Merchandise did not sell. Solo lost money because of the bad sequels. Spin-offs were canceled. So, regardless of market research or whatever, the end result was not good.
      - Timon3 3y ago
        > So, regardless of market research or whatever, the end result was not good. Do you believe I'm trying to say anything different? You're arguing against something that is not my point.
        the_doctah 3y ago
canadianfella 3y ago
[dead]
yongjik 3y ago
I have no love for the extravagant dumpster fire that is the sequels, but "forced, ideologically-driven tarnishing of their childhood memories" could equally (or even better) describe the bunch of loud online critics who were strangely invested in attacking poorly-envisioned black/Asian/female characters, when the arcs of white male characters were honestly no better. (They were made by the same creators, duh.) Makes me wonder if they are objecting to something else but don't want to say that part loud. * I'm (obviously) not saying all online critics are like that: it's really easy to hate these movies, they're a total mess.

Timon3 3y ago

> a forced, ideologically-driven tarnishing of their childhood memories I'm sure there is a minority that believes this, but the majority know that there is no ideological drive, only a greed one. Alignment with current social issues happens based on calculations of profit, not based on sincere ideological commitment. Making good movies is hard, making movies following current social issues is easy. Both bring money, one is a lot more consistent - and the negative press keeps the properties in the media far longer than they usually would.

garbagecoder 3y ago
Definitely some people were put off by the ideological bent to it. I found it slightly grating (and I'm a center-left type), but I could have excused it if there was anything else to the films. The first one seemed promising if finished, but the rest were just sloppy. In other words, it's not like an unwoke version of those films would have been good. Like, they resorted to bringing Palpatine back. That's not being fixed by changing Finn's race, Rey's gender, or that one chick's hair color or whatever else people are upset about who stole the Picard Maneuver. Every popular movie gets leveled with some criticism about its politics. But just like most of my computing tools, I really care more about whether they work than whether the company posts a logo I agree or disagree with. Here the second two especially were just trash movies that put the elements of the universe in a blender.
- norwalkbear 3y ago
  Making it less woke would have made it successful with one simple trick . Let Luke be a positive male hero.
  - Timon3 3y ago
    What does "less woke" have to do with "positive male hero"? Do you think there is no woke media with positive male heroes? Do you believe all non-woke media has positive male heroes? The best positive male representation I've seen was on very progressive (what you'd call "woke") shows.
  - garbagecoder 3y ago
    I agree that making Luke turn out better would have been one of many keys to its improvement, but I don't think that was done to be woke. If anything it was more regurgitation. They felt like he needed a hermit phase like Obi Wan. Also, there were supposed to be positive male heroes in it, right? Finn, even Kylo Ren in the end, and the guy whose name I forget that's the pilot. Having one of the key characters be a female hero goes back to A New Hope so I'm not sure if this is actually a good faith complaint.
    - cruxluna 3y ago
      [dead]
intalentive 3y ago
> Alignment with current social issues happens based on calculations of profit, not based on sincere ideological commitment. Yeah, Bud Light was just “calculating profit” when it alienated its customer base.
- stuckinhell 3y ago
  The Bud Light controversy is absolutely stunning, and is affecting my job in directional planning. I don't think any high level executive saw that coming.
- Timon3 3y ago
  Yes, they did. They had a calculated marketing campaign where they paid various influencers to market towards their respective audiences. I'm sure they made a risk analysis - and if you look at other transgender influencers paid by other companies who were spared this moral outcry, you'll see that it's more bad luck than anything else that the conserviative media machine focused so much on them.
  - norwalkbear 3y ago
    I don't think so. Gay Marriage bills didn't even pass in California, or 29 other states. The supreme court overturned the will of Americans (btw I'm French). It's clear American elites are far far more liberal progressive than the American people themselves. The country that had Nixon win in a landslide, brought Trump too.
    - Timon3 3y ago
      Luckily that's very easy to disprove, since we have statistics about the amount of Americans supporting e.g. same-sex marriage: in November 2022, 61% of Americans saw it as a net positive. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/11/15/about-six-in-ten-americans-say-legalization-of-same-sex-marriage-is-good-for-society/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/11/15/about-six...
      - 3y ago
the_doctah 3y ago
>Alignment with current social issues happens based on calculations of profit, not based on sincere ideological commitment. I guess they need to do a better job with their market research. Because destroying Luke Skywalker and redefining the Mary Sue trope doesn't seem like what the public wanted.
- Timon3 3y ago
  Did you read my previous comment? I explained reasonably clearly that they didn't focus on making a good movie. You yourself are saying that destroying Luke Skywalker and redefining the Mary Sue trope doesn't seem like what the public wanted. But I'll guarantee you that there was a lot of market research which determined that: - strong female leads are popular - "defying expectations" is popular - Marvel style humor is popular And when you put those things together without caring about making a good movie, you will do things like destroying Luke Skywalker, or redefining the Mary Sue trope. These things didn't happen because they wanted them to happen, they happened because they didn't care enough to not make them happen.
  - the_doctah 3y ago
    Your comments about what Disney thinks is popular amount to nothing but conjecture on your part. Meanwhile, the sequels were not well received by fans. And, while I'm certain you would make the argument about the movies making money, they underperformed with regards to expectations. Merchandise did not sell. Solo lost money because of the bad sequels. Spin-offs were canceled. So, regardless of market research or whatever, the end result was not good.
    - Timon3 3y ago
      > So, regardless of market research or whatever, the end result was not good. Do you believe I'm trying to say anything different? You're arguing against something that is not my point.
      - the_doctah 3y ago

canadianfella 3y ago

[dead]

yongjik 3y ago

I have no love for the extravagant dumpster fire that is the sequels, but "forced, ideologically-driven tarnishing of their childhood memories" could equally (or even better) describe the bunch of loud online critics who were strangely invested in attacking poorly-envisioned black/Asian/female characters, when the arcs of white male characters were honestly no better. (They were made by the same creators, duh.) Makes me wonder if they are objecting to something else but don't want to say that part loud. * I'm (obviously) not saying all online critics are like that: it's really easy to hate these movies, they're a total mess.