3 ms·

> is that the humans really are the bad guys Ehhh... maybe that was the satirical intent in the 80s, but it's pretty clearly not true anymore. The Imperium as

> is that the humans really are the bad guys Ehhh... maybe that was the satirical intent in the 80s, but it's pretty clearly not true anymore. The Imperium as a whole kinda sucks, but Roboute Guilliman is simply a protagonist, there's no subtlety that the fanbase is missing.

bart_spoon 3y ago
What's your point? Just because not every individual member of the faction is not evil doesn't make the faction not evil.
- justrealist 3y ago
  "humans are the bad guys" is not accurate? But as a stronger statement, I don't think the Imperium is even presented as an evil faction anymore. The Inquisition is the darkest traditional faction, but look at their presentation in something new like Darktide. It's at worst morally comparable to a "grey" protagonist like the Punisher in other media.
  - LanceH 3y ago
    The empire of man is cruel in its indifference to individuals and humanity's future is certainly grim. But the work is ostensibly being done to preserve the existence of man.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    Humanity is "benevolent oppressive facism" (the "oppressive" part is NOT redundant) AT BEST
    - kergonath 3y ago
      It is not benevolent at all. The rulers have no qualm sacrificing entire stellar systems. There are strong “kill them all, God will know his own” vibes, and the Inquisition is nobody’s idea of the good guys.
    - justrealist 3y ago
      I feel like we're just playing with words here. "In newer 40k media, you are intended to root for humans working on behalf of the Imperium" is a true statement IMO. That makes them "the good guys", even if overall kind of crappy.
      - mrguyorama 3y ago
        Do you mean protagonist? The protagonist is not always the good guy
  - kergonath 3y ago
    > “humans are the bad guys" is not accurate? “Humans are the bad guys” does not imply that all humans are bad. Just that overall they are really not good. So pointing out one archetypal white knight type is not a refutation of the point.
    - ilyt 3y ago
      It's not accurate. Imperium is bad guys is more accurate. There are humans outside the Imperium too.
devjab 3y ago
One of the first things the Rowboat does after coming out of his princess Aurora sleep is to dissolve democracy and replace it with a military dictatorship because he gets sick of free people not just following his opinion. This happens in the plague war trilogy by the way, and don’t worry, it’s not a major spoiler in any way. I guess some people can paint that as a good thing, but I think that for most people its pretty evil. It also plays a small part, however, with the bigger points of sarcasm and critical tone moving on to things like organised religion, fake news and manipulation of hearts and minds. I do agree that some, maybe even most, of the sarcasm targeting Reaganism that was the foundation for the lore back in the 80ies is weaker in the new official lore. But I think that is just because the current writers are moving on to make fun of more modern things like the anti-intellectuals you see on the far-right today. I do think they are much more successful with that in Age or Sigmar than in 40K, but I don’t think they are writing the imperium to be the good guys either. Sure some people will see “humans” as the good guys, and sure, a lot of the anti-fascism is going to be lost on some people, but it honestly always has been.
ilyt 3y ago
Sure the particular units might not be considered evil but what Imperium does pretty much is. Xenos ? Purge without question, even if they are peaceful Human colony wanting to be just left alone ? Nope, can't have that, conquer and make them pay tribute. Mutated in wrong way ? Probably chaos, purge just in case. Human rights ? Only human right is to sacrifice life for Emperor. Sure the world requires such level of sacrifice just to survive the threats from rest of the universe but that doesn't make Imperium not evil Then again, every other major faction is too... maybe except Tyranids, they just hungry

bart_spoon 3y ago

What's your point? Just because not every individual member of the faction is not evil doesn't make the faction not evil.

justrealist 3y ago
"humans are the bad guys" is not accurate? But as a stronger statement, I don't think the Imperium is even presented as an evil faction anymore. The Inquisition is the darkest traditional faction, but look at their presentation in something new like Darktide. It's at worst morally comparable to a "grey" protagonist like the Punisher in other media.
- LanceH 3y ago
  The empire of man is cruel in its indifference to individuals and humanity's future is certainly grim. But the work is ostensibly being done to preserve the existence of man.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  Humanity is "benevolent oppressive facism" (the "oppressive" part is NOT redundant) AT BEST
  - kergonath 3y ago
    It is not benevolent at all. The rulers have no qualm sacrificing entire stellar systems. There are strong “kill them all, God will know his own” vibes, and the Inquisition is nobody’s idea of the good guys.
  - justrealist 3y ago
    I feel like we're just playing with words here. "In newer 40k media, you are intended to root for humans working on behalf of the Imperium" is a true statement IMO. That makes them "the good guys", even if overall kind of crappy.
    - mrguyorama 3y ago
      Do you mean protagonist? The protagonist is not always the good guy
- kergonath 3y ago
  > “humans are the bad guys" is not accurate? “Humans are the bad guys” does not imply that all humans are bad. Just that overall they are really not good. So pointing out one archetypal white knight type is not a refutation of the point.
  - ilyt 3y ago
    It's not accurate. Imperium is bad guys is more accurate. There are humans outside the Imperium too.

devjab 3y ago

One of the first things the Rowboat does after coming out of his princess Aurora sleep is to dissolve democracy and replace it with a military dictatorship because he gets sick of free people not just following his opinion. This happens in the plague war trilogy by the way, and don’t worry, it’s not a major spoiler in any way. I guess some people can paint that as a good thing, but I think that for most people its pretty evil. It also plays a small part, however, with the bigger points of sarcasm and critical tone moving on to things like organised religion, fake news and manipulation of hearts and minds. I do agree that some, maybe even most, of the sarcasm targeting Reaganism that was the foundation for the lore back in the 80ies is weaker in the new official lore. But I think that is just because the current writers are moving on to make fun of more modern things like the anti-intellectuals you see on the far-right today. I do think they are much more successful with that in Age or Sigmar than in 40K, but I don’t think they are writing the imperium to be the good guys either. Sure some people will see “humans” as the good guys, and sure, a lot of the anti-fascism is going to be lost on some people, but it honestly always has been.

ilyt 3y ago

Sure the particular units might not be considered evil but what Imperium does pretty much is. Xenos ? Purge without question, even if they are peaceful Human colony wanting to be just left alone ? Nope, can't have that, conquer and make them pay tribute. Mutated in wrong way ? Probably chaos, purge just in case. Human rights ? Only human right is to sacrifice life for Emperor. Sure the world requires such level of sacrifice just to survive the threats from rest of the universe but that doesn't make Imperium not evil Then again, every other major faction is too... maybe except Tyranids, they just hungry