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I have been a huge Tesla fan - we own 2 (model 3 and Y). I think Tesla perfectly executed the barn raising of a new EV car company: (1) Build a premium roadster

I have been a huge Tesla fan - we own 2 (model 3 and Y). I think Tesla perfectly executed the barn raising of a new EV car company: (1) Build a premium roadster (2) Build a premium sedan (3) Build a mid range sedan. Each step allowed them to develop expertise and attract the right customers with the right expectations at the right $$$ amount. The design of each car has been elegant: simple, but attractive. The Cybertruck was a huge misstep. I imagine truck people are mostly practical - so a design out of blade runner not only creates unnecessary engineering challenges, but misses most of the market. When I look at all the Rivian's around town, I think, man, that is the truck that I expected Tesla to build. The Cybertruck is clearly at vanity project at way too early a point in Tesla's history. An embodiment of Elon's departure from reality. Tesla - please drop the Cybertruck (and the robots, too)! And though I am no fan of mergers - maybe you should look into buying Rivian.

ttfkam 3y ago
If Rivian is doing the right thing, why would you want the company doing the wrong thing to buy them? Seems anti-capitalistic to me and about consolidating power to fewer and fewer entities rather than letting competing products duke it out in the marketplace. If Tesla can dig itself out of this engineering hole, let them. If they can't, let consequences be.
- pfannkuchen 3y ago
  If a company has a deficiency in one acute area, I’m not sure it’s anti-capitalistic to address that deficiency via an acquisition. If they are deficient overall though then I agree with you.
  - ttfkam 3y ago
    Buying your way into electric truck marketshare instead of designing and building it yourself and letting the consumer decide? Instead of a Rivian truck and a Tesla truck, consumers just get one? I mean, it's typical US corporate behavior at this point, but I fail to see how it positively affects the market or truck buyers. Tesla stock, sure.
    - pfannkuchen 3y ago
      Interesting. I would definitely agree that it is not optimal behavior from the consumer’s perspective. I would hesitate to call it anti-capitalistic - do you think all acquisitions are anti-capitalistic? I have never heard this argued.
      - ttfkam 3y ago
        Antitrust enforcement—sadly out of favor compared to the 20th century—was specifically created to foster competition within the marketplace. It was rightly seen as a bulwark against a wealthy, powerful player simply buying themselves a greater share of the market. Monopolies are a consequence of capitalism but serve to choke out the engine of capitalism. A monopolistic (or oligarchic) environment is no different from a government-sanctioned planned economy where a few (or one) players set prices, decide the pace of innovation, and restrict supply according to their own narrow interests. Arguably in a democracy it's worse since corporations tend to have an autocratic model rather than an electoral one, so the people are left with even fewer options. If you want a better society with greater choices and opportunity, let them make a better product or at least cheaper. Buying out the competition just raises prices and reduces choice. I would definitely consider that anti-capitalistic.
- DoesntMatter22 3y ago
  I think the "hole" is just imaginary. They are flush with cash and they are creating something they know they'll be selling for decades. Better to take the time and get it right. It's hugely popular too.
  - ttfkam 3y ago
    Being flush with cash doesn't take away from an engineering hole. They announced the Cybertruck quite a while ago, and the problems described in the report are not just a matter of fine tuning. Maybe they will or maybe they won't fill the hole faster than expected, but the hole is clearly not imaginary.
ssharp 3y ago
The Rivian truck has no appeal to me. I don't think its design is that appealing and the bed is too small. It's more comparable to the smaller trucks than it is to the incumbent 1/2 ton market. The Cybertruck is a viable replacement for a 1/2 ton truck. It's design is clearly polarizing but the people who like it, really seem to like it. There isn't anything too interesting about the electric trucks from Ford and Chevy, so there seems to be a carve out for something a little wilder and I'm happy that Tesla is investing in doing something different. Also, if you live in a place where there are lots of trucks you'll see trucks with all kinds of embellishments. The Cybertruck may not end up being that far-fetched of a design. Plus, Musk has been transforming his image to be more right-friendly politically and that's going to eliminate some friction from that demographic that has a big overlap with truck ownership.
- DoesntMatter22 3y ago
  I think the CyberTruck is hideous. Absolutely ugly. However, if I needed a truck I'd pretty heavily consider it. I know what I'm getting with Tesla, where as Rivian? Who knows, they are so new. And Tesla in general does a very good job with their vehicles.
  - mbushey 3y ago
    I think the CyberTruck is somewhere between beautiful and sexy. Other than your bad taste in aesthetics [IMHO], I completely agree with the rest of your comment.
QuadrupleA 3y ago
> I imagine truck people are mostly practical Ha - I live in an area with a ton of these behemoths. 19 times out of 20 there's no cargo in the back, and the owner is using them as an expensive gas guzzling grocery shopper. The modern "crew cab" also takes half the cargo / tailgate space now. So you get an awkward SUV or van without any weather protection for cargo. Modern American pickup trucks are all flash (a tough, hardworking image) and no substance.
- explorigin 3y ago
  I sold a Jeep Liberty to buy a truck (Honda Ridgeline) precisely because I wanted an open bed...but I live in the country and use the "truckness" of it at least twice a month. The biggest problem with consumer truck ownership is that people buy them if they might need them periodically (tow a camper, get supplies for a remodeling project) and then they use them for everyday life because where they are grossly out of proportion. Perceived safety also plays into the equation.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    > then they use them for everyday life because where they are grossly out of proportion. Perceived safety also plays into the equation. They use them for everyday life because energy is so cheap that it does not make sense to inconvenience yourself and use something else.
    - rutthenut 3y ago
      Buying an additional vehicle is more expensive and more wasteful than using a single vehicle even if that may not be economical
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
        Buying a pickup truck for periodic use is more wasteful than renting one as needed.
DoesntMatter22 3y ago
What? Really? You think they should merge with Rivian, a company that is severely in debt and producing cars at a loss. What do you think that buys them exactly? A traditional looking truck? They could have done that themselves. A huge misstep? No. I think the cyber truck is hideous but there are millions of people who love it. They will not have trouble selling as many as they make.
deleted 3y ago
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jaredhallen 3y ago
As an owner of multiple pickups, I don't see the cybertruck as a competing product. I certainly couldn't imagine it being a suitable replacement for any of our rigs, but it's cool in its own right. I would imagine people will buy it for what it is, if it ever sees the light of day.
- specialist 3y ago
  Ya, quirkiness wise, Cybertruck is like the EV version of a Subaru Brat. Or maybe even a PT Cruiser. I have no idea if it'll be a successful product. Not my taste, but I'm not the target market. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_BRAT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_BRAT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_PT_Cruiser https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_PT_Cruiser But from Tesla's presentations, the Cybertruck's impact on their manufacturing, designing the machine to make the machine, has been considerable. Like a demonstration platform. Cybertruck's reduction in labor costs and part counts will be game changing. For instance, no body or paint shops, which entail 1/3rd of the production cost (IIRC). Assuming the next two passenger vehicle models follow suit, I have zero doubt Tesla will hit their 20m/year production targets. And make a brazillian dollars doing it.
- mbushey 3y ago
  Why's that? I'm selling my Dodge Ram 2500 crew cab 8' bed Cummins Diesel as my CyberTruck reservation should be towards the top. I view the CyberTruck as a superior replacement for the Cummins Diesel. Then again I own a Model Y and really don't want to own another dino powered vehicle. I've replaced way to many engines and transmissions in my life. I have a 1 ton gantry in my garage that hopefully will never be used on gas/diesel powertrains again.
  - jaredhallen 3y ago
    I'm honestly not sure if this is sarcasm or not? I can't imagine pulling a 28' stock trailer full of cows with a cybertruck.
xoa 3y ago
>The Cybertruck was a huge misstep. I imagine truck people are mostly practical - so a design out of blade runner not only creates unnecessary engineering challenges, but misses most of the market. I really don't agree with you. I live in a rural area and make major use of my truck, and the Rivian looks to me like an urbinite's idea of a "practical truck" while looking like trash, wtf is even the point of a "truck" with a 4.5 foot bed? And I absolutely hate how many of the EV truck designs try to ape ICE limitations as aesthetics, like having some huge hood (which is now just a "frunk" not with a big engine). I want the cab moved way forward to give me better forward visibility taking advantage of what the EV platform makes possible. Whereas the Cybertruck at first unveiling looked eminently practical to me more so then anything else I'd seen yet. Actual useful truck bed. Cab forward. Design looked like it'd be good in the woods and on class 4 roads going through lots of branches. There is stuff I would have liked to see to take it even farther, I didn't like full cab required at first (I've mildly come around to it not being killer since unlike with my ICE truck an EV truck would be the most efficient vehicle I own since I have no other BEVs yet, so using it in general might make sense), there are other cool features EV might make easier I'd like to see as options at least like winches or dump. A "cyber" truck that had look-through floor or dashboard for even better visibility would also have been a far more interesting and practical "ambitious" feature then garbage like driver assist. But even so, up until recently the Cybertruck was the only truck that seemed to have form following function overall. >When I look at all the Rivian's around town, I think, man, that is the truck that I expected Tesla to build. The Cybertruck is clearly at vanity project at way too early a point in Tesla's history. An embodiment of Elon's departure from reality. Tesla - please drop the Cybertruck (and the robots, too)! And though I am no fan of mergers - maybe you should look into buying Rivian. Is this your opinion as someone who heavily uses trucks for work? To me the biggest problem with the Cybertruck, and this Wired article seems to back it up, has simply been that it never came out and never got iterating and that apparently it was starved of resources at critical periods vs the Model 3 and other endeavors. The FSD has been a big stupid suck of management and economic capital. They poured everything into ramping existing areas but let their pipeline of upcoming stuff wither, and it's a lot harder to turn that around. The whole thing smells of a the classic repeatedly screwup of underfunding and losing focus early on, failing to build the right teams and momentum, and then having it drag on non-linearly longer and resulting in something worse. And a product that would have been incredibly competitive if released on schedule ends up not being so when coming very late, plus then everything is behind in terms of iteration and real world experience etc etc. And there is pressure to try to "catch up" with iterating competitors, which then makes it all even worse. I don't know if their effort can recover from that at this point without major organizational work. This may also be a symptom of Musk getting too spread thin, too divorced from fundamentals. And competitors are revving up fast at last, I don't know why the BEV truck market has been so far behind the car market but that's clearly changing and other players are starting to do more EV-ground up designs like the Canoo [0]. Most of these, including Canoo, are probably going to fail and go bankrupt or at best get bought, but a few will work. And Tesla certainly won't be as differentiated as they would have been 3 years ago. But none of that is because of the Cybertruck's looks. It's just seen very, very bad execution. ---- 0: https://www.topspeed.com/canoo-electric-pickup-truck/ https://www.topspeed.com/canoo-electric-pickup-truck/
everdrive 3y ago
Except that the Rivians are ungodly expensive and incredibly heavy. They might look more like a regular truck, but they’re incredibly impractical.
roflyear 3y ago
Truck people are probably not what you think they are.
panick21_ 3y ago
> I imagine truck people are mostly practical - so a design out of blade runner not only creates unnecessary engineering challenges, but misses most of the market. They are not practical vehicles. The waste majority of people don't use their trucks for practical things. And the Cybertruck is not really less practical then other trucks, more in some ways. And given how many pre order and how other metrics look, there is plenty of interest in the server truck. > maybe you should look into buying Rivian. Why would they buy Rivian, that's a crazy idea. Its far cheaper to just take the Cybertruck parts and design a normal looking truck. Tesla design choices should eventually make for a high margin truck.

ttfkam 3y ago

If Rivian is doing the right thing, why would you want the company doing the wrong thing to buy them? Seems anti-capitalistic to me and about consolidating power to fewer and fewer entities rather than letting competing products duke it out in the marketplace. If Tesla can dig itself out of this engineering hole, let them. If they can't, let consequences be.

pfannkuchen 3y ago
If a company has a deficiency in one acute area, I’m not sure it’s anti-capitalistic to address that deficiency via an acquisition. If they are deficient overall though then I agree with you.
- ttfkam 3y ago
  Buying your way into electric truck marketshare instead of designing and building it yourself and letting the consumer decide? Instead of a Rivian truck and a Tesla truck, consumers just get one? I mean, it's typical US corporate behavior at this point, but I fail to see how it positively affects the market or truck buyers. Tesla stock, sure.
  - pfannkuchen 3y ago
    Interesting. I would definitely agree that it is not optimal behavior from the consumer’s perspective. I would hesitate to call it anti-capitalistic - do you think all acquisitions are anti-capitalistic? I have never heard this argued.
    - ttfkam 3y ago
      Antitrust enforcement—sadly out of favor compared to the 20th century—was specifically created to foster competition within the marketplace. It was rightly seen as a bulwark against a wealthy, powerful player simply buying themselves a greater share of the market. Monopolies are a consequence of capitalism but serve to choke out the engine of capitalism. A monopolistic (or oligarchic) environment is no different from a government-sanctioned planned economy where a few (or one) players set prices, decide the pace of innovation, and restrict supply according to their own narrow interests. Arguably in a democracy it's worse since corporations tend to have an autocratic model rather than an electoral one, so the people are left with even fewer options. If you want a better society with greater choices and opportunity, let them make a better product or at least cheaper. Buying out the competition just raises prices and reduces choice. I would definitely consider that anti-capitalistic.
DoesntMatter22 3y ago
I think the "hole" is just imaginary. They are flush with cash and they are creating something they know they'll be selling for decades. Better to take the time and get it right. It's hugely popular too.
- ttfkam 3y ago
  Being flush with cash doesn't take away from an engineering hole. They announced the Cybertruck quite a while ago, and the problems described in the report are not just a matter of fine tuning. Maybe they will or maybe they won't fill the hole faster than expected, but the hole is clearly not imaginary.

ssharp 3y ago

The Rivian truck has no appeal to me. I don't think its design is that appealing and the bed is too small. It's more comparable to the smaller trucks than it is to the incumbent 1/2 ton market. The Cybertruck is a viable replacement for a 1/2 ton truck. It's design is clearly polarizing but the people who like it, really seem to like it. There isn't anything too interesting about the electric trucks from Ford and Chevy, so there seems to be a carve out for something a little wilder and I'm happy that Tesla is investing in doing something different. Also, if you live in a place where there are lots of trucks you'll see trucks with all kinds of embellishments. The Cybertruck may not end up being that far-fetched of a design. Plus, Musk has been transforming his image to be more right-friendly politically and that's going to eliminate some friction from that demographic that has a big overlap with truck ownership.

DoesntMatter22 3y ago
I think the CyberTruck is hideous. Absolutely ugly. However, if I needed a truck I'd pretty heavily consider it. I know what I'm getting with Tesla, where as Rivian? Who knows, they are so new. And Tesla in general does a very good job with their vehicles.
- mbushey 3y ago
  I think the CyberTruck is somewhere between beautiful and sexy. Other than your bad taste in aesthetics [IMHO], I completely agree with the rest of your comment.

QuadrupleA 3y ago

> I imagine truck people are mostly practical Ha - I live in an area with a ton of these behemoths. 19 times out of 20 there's no cargo in the back, and the owner is using them as an expensive gas guzzling grocery shopper. The modern "crew cab" also takes half the cargo / tailgate space now. So you get an awkward SUV or van without any weather protection for cargo. Modern American pickup trucks are all flash (a tough, hardworking image) and no substance.

explorigin 3y ago
I sold a Jeep Liberty to buy a truck (Honda Ridgeline) precisely because I wanted an open bed...but I live in the country and use the "truckness" of it at least twice a month. The biggest problem with consumer truck ownership is that people buy them if they might need them periodically (tow a camper, get supplies for a remodeling project) and then they use them for everyday life because where they are grossly out of proportion. Perceived safety also plays into the equation.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  > then they use them for everyday life because where they are grossly out of proportion. Perceived safety also plays into the equation. They use them for everyday life because energy is so cheap that it does not make sense to inconvenience yourself and use something else.
  - rutthenut 3y ago
    Buying an additional vehicle is more expensive and more wasteful than using a single vehicle even if that may not be economical
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      Buying a pickup truck for periodic use is more wasteful than renting one as needed.

DoesntMatter22 3y ago

What? Really? You think they should merge with Rivian, a company that is severely in debt and producing cars at a loss. What do you think that buys them exactly? A traditional looking truck? They could have done that themselves. A huge misstep? No. I think the cyber truck is hideous but there are millions of people who love it. They will not have trouble selling as many as they make.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

jaredhallen 3y ago

As an owner of multiple pickups, I don't see the cybertruck as a competing product. I certainly couldn't imagine it being a suitable replacement for any of our rigs, but it's cool in its own right. I would imagine people will buy it for what it is, if it ever sees the light of day.

specialist 3y ago
Ya, quirkiness wise, Cybertruck is like the EV version of a Subaru Brat. Or maybe even a PT Cruiser. I have no idea if it'll be a successful product. Not my taste, but I'm not the target market. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_BRAT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_BRAT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_PT_Cruiser https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_PT_Cruiser But from Tesla's presentations, the Cybertruck's impact on their manufacturing, designing the machine to make the machine, has been considerable. Like a demonstration platform. Cybertruck's reduction in labor costs and part counts will be game changing. For instance, no body or paint shops, which entail 1/3rd of the production cost (IIRC). Assuming the next two passenger vehicle models follow suit, I have zero doubt Tesla will hit their 20m/year production targets. And make a brazillian dollars doing it.
mbushey 3y ago
Why's that? I'm selling my Dodge Ram 2500 crew cab 8' bed Cummins Diesel as my CyberTruck reservation should be towards the top. I view the CyberTruck as a superior replacement for the Cummins Diesel. Then again I own a Model Y and really don't want to own another dino powered vehicle. I've replaced way to many engines and transmissions in my life. I have a 1 ton gantry in my garage that hopefully will never be used on gas/diesel powertrains again.
- jaredhallen 3y ago
  I'm honestly not sure if this is sarcasm or not? I can't imagine pulling a 28' stock trailer full of cows with a cybertruck.

xoa 3y ago

>The Cybertruck was a huge misstep. I imagine truck people are mostly practical - so a design out of blade runner not only creates unnecessary engineering challenges, but misses most of the market. I really don't agree with you. I live in a rural area and make major use of my truck, and the Rivian looks to me like an urbinite's idea of a "practical truck" while looking like trash, wtf is even the point of a "truck" with a 4.5 foot bed? And I absolutely hate how many of the EV truck designs try to ape ICE limitations as aesthetics, like having some huge hood (which is now just a "frunk" not with a big engine). I want the cab moved way forward to give me better forward visibility taking advantage of what the EV platform makes possible. Whereas the Cybertruck at first unveiling looked eminently practical to me more so then anything else I'd seen yet. Actual useful truck bed. Cab forward. Design looked like it'd be good in the woods and on class 4 roads going through lots of branches. There is stuff I would have liked to see to take it even farther, I didn't like full cab required at first (I've mildly come around to it not being killer since unlike with my ICE truck an EV truck would be the most efficient vehicle I own since I have no other BEVs yet, so using it in general might make sense), there are other cool features EV might make easier I'd like to see as options at least like winches or dump. A "cyber" truck that had look-through floor or dashboard for even better visibility would also have been a far more interesting and practical "ambitious" feature then garbage like driver assist. But even so, up until recently the Cybertruck was the only truck that seemed to have form following function overall. >When I look at all the Rivian's around town, I think, man, that is the truck that I expected Tesla to build. The Cybertruck is clearly at vanity project at way too early a point in Tesla's history. An embodiment of Elon's departure from reality. Tesla - please drop the Cybertruck (and the robots, too)! And though I am no fan of mergers - maybe you should look into buying Rivian. Is this your opinion as someone who heavily uses trucks for work? To me the biggest problem with the Cybertruck, and this Wired article seems to back it up, has simply been that it never came out and never got iterating and that apparently it was starved of resources at critical periods vs the Model 3 and other endeavors. The FSD has been a big stupid suck of management and economic capital. They poured everything into ramping existing areas but let their pipeline of upcoming stuff wither, and it's a lot harder to turn that around. The whole thing smells of a the classic repeatedly screwup of underfunding and losing focus early on, failing to build the right teams and momentum, and then having it drag on non-linearly longer and resulting in something worse. And a product that would have been incredibly competitive if released on schedule ends up not being so when coming very late, plus then everything is behind in terms of iteration and real world experience etc etc. And there is pressure to try to "catch up" with iterating competitors, which then makes it all even worse. I don't know if their effort can recover from that at this point without major organizational work. This may also be a symptom of Musk getting too spread thin, too divorced from fundamentals. And competitors are revving up fast at last, I don't know why the BEV truck market has been so far behind the car market but that's clearly changing and other players are starting to do more EV-ground up designs like the Canoo [0]. Most of these, including Canoo, are probably going to fail and go bankrupt or at best get bought, but a few will work. And Tesla certainly won't be as differentiated as they would have been 3 years ago. But none of that is because of the Cybertruck's looks. It's just seen very, very bad execution. ---- 0: https://www.topspeed.com/canoo-electric-pickup-truck/ https://www.topspeed.com/canoo-electric-pickup-truck/

everdrive 3y ago

Except that the Rivians are ungodly expensive and incredibly heavy. They might look more like a regular truck, but they’re incredibly impractical.

roflyear 3y ago

Truck people are probably not what you think they are.

panick21_ 3y ago

> I imagine truck people are mostly practical - so a design out of blade runner not only creates unnecessary engineering challenges, but misses most of the market. They are not practical vehicles. The waste majority of people don't use their trucks for practical things. And the Cybertruck is not really less practical then other trucks, more in some ways. And given how many pre order and how other metrics look, there is plenty of interest in the server truck. > maybe you should look into buying Rivian. Why would they buy Rivian, that's a crazy idea. Its far cheaper to just take the Cybertruck parts and design a normal looking truck. Tesla design choices should eventually make for a high margin truck.