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Great article. Just like the ones before it. I’m waiting for the articles where people are convicted of crimes… I won’t hold my breath, for justice anyway, ju

Great article. Just like the ones before it. I’m waiting for the articles where people are convicted of crimes… I won’t hold my breath, for justice anyway, just for protection from my government experimenting on me without consent while policing themselves and accountable to nobody.

RandomLensman 3y ago
It might seem quaint from today's perspectives, but the cold war was real with an actual and dangerous adversary.
- vintermann 3y ago
  [flagged]
- usrnm 3y ago
  And how many Americans were hurt by that adversary in any way over the whole period of the cold war? As opposed to their own government
  - RandomLensman 3y ago
    How many were not hurt precisely because their government prepared and signaled preparedness to the USSR? Also, USSR support for North Korea and North Vietnam surely hurt a lot of Americans (and others) for real during those two wars.
    - KennyBlanken 3y ago
      Since the cold war ended it's now obvious that we both a)vastly overestimated Russia's capacity and b)pressured them into a lot of military spending simply because they felt they had to do so because of how much we were spending and all our sabre-rattling. The only people who "won" were the very military-industrial complex Ike warned us about.
      - RandomLensman 3y ago
        If it is about the cold war, that would have been the USSR, not Russia. And they did act against the West (WWII disagreements aside, starting with the blockade of West Berlin), they planned for attacks on Western Europe, etc. The idea that the USSR and Warsaw pact were somehow just reactive isn't true. Might the West have overestimated their capacity: probably yes (especially in later years), but the conflict was still very real.
      - George83728 3y ago
        > b)pressured them into a lot of military spending simply because they felt they had to do so because of how much we were spending and all our sabre-rattling. Yes, that was the Soviet (Russian) perspective. They felt pressured to keep up with the US. But the flipside is that the inverse was also happening; America spent tons of money developing new weapons and capabilities because the Russians were doing the same. For instance, the F-15 was developed into the air superiority fighter that it is because the Mig-25 was (mistakenly) believed to be similarly capable. Too often the "Soviets were afraid of America" narrative is used to suggest that America was an aggressor and the Soviets were hapless victims of this aggression, forced to spend by America. But the truth is that both sides were doing this to each other, and besides, the whole of it was arguably started by aggressive Soviet expansion before and after WW2, for instance the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact in which the Soviet Union conspired with the Nazis to divide up Poland, Russia's subsequent refusal to allow Poland to become independent after the war, and the persistent Soviet threats to invade western Europe and incorporate France, the UK, etc into their "union". The "Soviet Union" was a farce of a union, a fig leaf over Russian imperialism.
- retrac 3y ago
  Beyond quaint; I think a lot of people born after genuinely find it hard to comprehend the mindset. (Maybe we're just still in cultural shock from winning. If we won so handily it couldn't have been big of a deal, was it?) I encountered this with a friend when discussing MKUltra recently. He was hung-up on the why. But why? Why did they do it? Well, despite the reputation for its straightlacedness slapped on the decade after the fact, the 1950s were actually a rather wonky time culturally in America. (Flying saucer madness... hm. Sounds familiar.) A time when a lot of rather sensible people were at least open to the possibility of far-out ideas like telepathy, extra-sensory perception, and brain reprogramming. And these same sensible people were lying awake at night in genuine terror that the Soviets would develop telepathic brainwashing agents before red-blooded Americans did. Their motivations, as bizarre as it seems to us today, were quite straightforward.
  - Tade0 3y ago
    I always felt I lacked context on the why, since I'm not American and all. But now I get it. Over here, uncomfortably close to Russia, until 2022 people thought Russians have some scary stuff in store, considering they've spent an estimated $600bln on modernizing their military. They do not. But the thought was genuinely scary.
    - HWR_14 3y ago
      They may still have some scary stuff in store. They just started with truly nasty attacks on the population by blowing up dams. Sure they don't have good troops or supply lines, but WMDs, and especially bio programs, don't need many trips or long supply lines. And are, compared to tanks and aircraft, both cheaper and easier to develop and maintain as part of a massive military expenditure. Right now, when they are getting more desperate, is getting closer to when Putin may feel compelled to push the red button.
  - p1esk 3y ago
    a lot of people born after genuinely find it hard to comprehend the mindset Are we not in the middle of a cold war with Russia currently?
- pjc50 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - RandomLensman 3y ago
    Not sure how many people would have preferred the USSR to eventually win... Also, the US wasn't conducting "biological warfare in the NYC subway". They were trying to assess how pathogens might spread in the event of an actual attack.
    - localplume 3y ago
      [dead]
- mablopoule 3y ago
  Exactly. On that subject, I cannot recommend enough an episode of a Lawfare-related podcast (ChinaTalk) called "Hoover, Communism, and the FBI" [1], which explore the life of J. Edgar Hoover, the zeigeist of the early twentieth century, and an revisiting the "red scare" in light of the since declassified information of Russian spying networks on US soil. Related to this is the "Venona project" [2], where US agency could break the encryption of old soviet telegraph, and learn a great deal on soviet spy network. [1] https://www.lawfareblog.com/chinatalk-hoover-communism-and-fbi https://www.lawfareblog.com/chinatalk-hoover-communism-and-f... [2] https://www.lawfareblog.com/lawfare-podcast-project-venona https://www.lawfareblog.com/lawfare-podcast-project-venona
- standardUser 3y ago
  There was real and actual danger to the millions of people killed and maimed in the proxy wars between the US and USSR. But aside from a few acute crises, there was very little danger to civilian Americans or Russians living their day-to-day lives. Arguably, there is far more danger today due to gun violence, which has killed vastly more Americans than Russia ever did.

RandomLensman 3y ago

It might seem quaint from today's perspectives, but the cold war was real with an actual and dangerous adversary.

vintermann 3y ago
[flagged]
usrnm 3y ago
And how many Americans were hurt by that adversary in any way over the whole period of the cold war? As opposed to their own government
- RandomLensman 3y ago
  How many were not hurt precisely because their government prepared and signaled preparedness to the USSR? Also, USSR support for North Korea and North Vietnam surely hurt a lot of Americans (and others) for real during those two wars.
  - KennyBlanken 3y ago
    Since the cold war ended it's now obvious that we both a)vastly overestimated Russia's capacity and b)pressured them into a lot of military spending simply because they felt they had to do so because of how much we were spending and all our sabre-rattling. The only people who "won" were the very military-industrial complex Ike warned us about.
    - RandomLensman 3y ago
      If it is about the cold war, that would have been the USSR, not Russia. And they did act against the West (WWII disagreements aside, starting with the blockade of West Berlin), they planned for attacks on Western Europe, etc. The idea that the USSR and Warsaw pact were somehow just reactive isn't true. Might the West have overestimated their capacity: probably yes (especially in later years), but the conflict was still very real.
    - George83728 3y ago
      > b)pressured them into a lot of military spending simply because they felt they had to do so because of how much we were spending and all our sabre-rattling. Yes, that was the Soviet (Russian) perspective. They felt pressured to keep up with the US. But the flipside is that the inverse was also happening; America spent tons of money developing new weapons and capabilities because the Russians were doing the same. For instance, the F-15 was developed into the air superiority fighter that it is because the Mig-25 was (mistakenly) believed to be similarly capable. Too often the "Soviets were afraid of America" narrative is used to suggest that America was an aggressor and the Soviets were hapless victims of this aggression, forced to spend by America. But the truth is that both sides were doing this to each other, and besides, the whole of it was arguably started by aggressive Soviet expansion before and after WW2, for instance the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact in which the Soviet Union conspired with the Nazis to divide up Poland, Russia's subsequent refusal to allow Poland to become independent after the war, and the persistent Soviet threats to invade western Europe and incorporate France, the UK, etc into their "union". The "Soviet Union" was a farce of a union, a fig leaf over Russian imperialism.
retrac 3y ago
Beyond quaint; I think a lot of people born after genuinely find it hard to comprehend the mindset. (Maybe we're just still in cultural shock from winning. If we won so handily it couldn't have been big of a deal, was it?) I encountered this with a friend when discussing MKUltra recently. He was hung-up on the why. But why? Why did they do it? Well, despite the reputation for its straightlacedness slapped on the decade after the fact, the 1950s were actually a rather wonky time culturally in America. (Flying saucer madness... hm. Sounds familiar.) A time when a lot of rather sensible people were at least open to the possibility of far-out ideas like telepathy, extra-sensory perception, and brain reprogramming. And these same sensible people were lying awake at night in genuine terror that the Soviets would develop telepathic brainwashing agents before red-blooded Americans did. Their motivations, as bizarre as it seems to us today, were quite straightforward.
- Tade0 3y ago
  I always felt I lacked context on the why, since I'm not American and all. But now I get it. Over here, uncomfortably close to Russia, until 2022 people thought Russians have some scary stuff in store, considering they've spent an estimated $600bln on modernizing their military. They do not. But the thought was genuinely scary.
  - HWR_14 3y ago
    They may still have some scary stuff in store. They just started with truly nasty attacks on the population by blowing up dams. Sure they don't have good troops or supply lines, but WMDs, and especially bio programs, don't need many trips or long supply lines. And are, compared to tanks and aircraft, both cheaper and easier to develop and maintain as part of a massive military expenditure. Right now, when they are getting more desperate, is getting closer to when Putin may feel compelled to push the red button.
- p1esk 3y ago
  a lot of people born after genuinely find it hard to comprehend the mindset Are we not in the middle of a cold war with Russia currently?
pjc50 3y ago
[flagged]
- RandomLensman 3y ago
  Not sure how many people would have preferred the USSR to eventually win... Also, the US wasn't conducting "biological warfare in the NYC subway". They were trying to assess how pathogens might spread in the event of an actual attack.
  - localplume 3y ago
    [dead]
mablopoule 3y ago
Exactly. On that subject, I cannot recommend enough an episode of a Lawfare-related podcast (ChinaTalk) called "Hoover, Communism, and the FBI" [1], which explore the life of J. Edgar Hoover, the zeigeist of the early twentieth century, and an revisiting the "red scare" in light of the since declassified information of Russian spying networks on US soil. Related to this is the "Venona project" [2], where US agency could break the encryption of old soviet telegraph, and learn a great deal on soviet spy network. [1] https://www.lawfareblog.com/chinatalk-hoover-communism-and-fbi https://www.lawfareblog.com/chinatalk-hoover-communism-and-f... [2] https://www.lawfareblog.com/lawfare-podcast-project-venona https://www.lawfareblog.com/lawfare-podcast-project-venona
standardUser 3y ago
There was real and actual danger to the millions of people killed and maimed in the proxy wars between the US and USSR. But aside from a few acute crises, there was very little danger to civilian Americans or Russians living their day-to-day lives. Arguably, there is far more danger today due to gun violence, which has killed vastly more Americans than Russia ever did.