3 ms·

According to this poll only 22% of democrats or 27% of liberals believed the statement "some men can give birth". It seems absurd to me to call "men cannot give

According to this poll only 22% of democrats or 27% of liberals believed the statement "some men can give birth". It seems absurd to me to call "men cannot give birth" a right wing belief. I can see why someone like Carmack who's into hard sci-fi would like a venue where they're not just playing semantics and word games.

elcritch 3y ago
oops, https://twitter.com/IAPolls2022/status/1567562677513338880?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1567562677513338880%7Ctwgr%5E60b3409784a27b0ec282a5f179f451ed6538f237%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ffism.tv%2Fpoll-1-in-5-democrats-believe-some-men-can-get-pregnant%2F https://twitter.com/IAPolls2022/status/1567562677513338880?r...
rayiner 3y ago
[flagged]
jfengel 3y ago
It sounds as if they are playing semantics and word games. They don't have to take a position on the question one way or another, but instead they've made it a defining characteristic of their meeting. They happen to be playing the side of the game "I refuse to acknowledge that things can possibly be different than I grew up thinking they were." Which seems to me like a weird position for a sci-fi conference to take, but it's not up to me to judge. I do, however, take issue with the notion that they're not involving themselves, which they are very clearly doing.
- rayiner 3y ago
  > They happen to be playing the side of the game "I refuse to acknowledge that things can possibly be different than I grew up thinking they were." What do you think is the relevant difference—something that’s a fact rather than a matter of terminology or beliefs? Those points are actually entirely in line with Sci Fi. In Sci Fi, technological or scientific change is the vehicle for exploring different types of social concepts. The Star Trek world didn’t evolve into quasi-socialism because of moral change, but replicator technology. Sci-Fi typically doesn’t explore “nothing material has changed but we are going to change how we think anyway.”
  - jfengel 3y ago
    The existence of trans people is a real thing. If they don't like the terminology trans people use for it, fine, but that's a semantic argument. If they're denying that trans people exist, or that they'll go away if they're denied the right to use certain terminology, then it's a simple factual error.
    - rayiner 3y ago
      Gender dysphoria was added to DSM-III (as GID) back in 1980. I’d imagine almost everyone at this conference grew up at a time when this fact was well known.
      - jfengel 3y ago
        And yet they're making statements that it's either not a thing, or that they're outraged solely by the terminology they use about it. If they don't like calling trans men "men", fine, they don't have to. But there are people who identify as men, act as men, think of themselves as men, are treated as men by everyone around them, and yet can get pregnant. This is an objective fact. So either they don't like the fact or they don't like the words. Neither sounds like a good use of their time.
        rayiner 3y ago
        The existence of that self-identification by a small minority of people is an objective fact. But what does that have to do with how the rest of society—medical professionals, schools, etc.—uses the terminology? Are you saying terminology isn’t important? It sounds like you think it’s very important.
        tptacek 3y ago
        According to a UCLA survey, over 1.6MM trans people live in the US. According to Iceland, 6,492 Icelanders live in the US. If you tried to tell someone "only a small minority of people identify as Icelanders", they'd look at you like a space alien.

elcritch 3y ago

oops, https://twitter.com/IAPolls2022/status/1567562677513338880?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1567562677513338880%7Ctwgr%5E60b3409784a27b0ec282a5f179f451ed6538f237%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ffism.tv%2Fpoll-1-in-5-democrats-believe-some-men-can-get-pregnant%2F https://twitter.com/IAPolls2022/status/1567562677513338880?r...

rayiner 3y ago

[flagged]

jfengel 3y ago

It sounds as if they are playing semantics and word games. They don't have to take a position on the question one way or another, but instead they've made it a defining characteristic of their meeting. They happen to be playing the side of the game "I refuse to acknowledge that things can possibly be different than I grew up thinking they were." Which seems to me like a weird position for a sci-fi conference to take, but it's not up to me to judge. I do, however, take issue with the notion that they're not involving themselves, which they are very clearly doing.

rayiner 3y ago
> They happen to be playing the side of the game "I refuse to acknowledge that things can possibly be different than I grew up thinking they were." What do you think is the relevant difference—something that’s a fact rather than a matter of terminology or beliefs? Those points are actually entirely in line with Sci Fi. In Sci Fi, technological or scientific change is the vehicle for exploring different types of social concepts. The Star Trek world didn’t evolve into quasi-socialism because of moral change, but replicator technology. Sci-Fi typically doesn’t explore “nothing material has changed but we are going to change how we think anyway.”
- jfengel 3y ago
  The existence of trans people is a real thing. If they don't like the terminology trans people use for it, fine, but that's a semantic argument. If they're denying that trans people exist, or that they'll go away if they're denied the right to use certain terminology, then it's a simple factual error.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    Gender dysphoria was added to DSM-III (as GID) back in 1980. I’d imagine almost everyone at this conference grew up at a time when this fact was well known.
    - jfengel 3y ago
      And yet they're making statements that it's either not a thing, or that they're outraged solely by the terminology they use about it. If they don't like calling trans men "men", fine, they don't have to. But there are people who identify as men, act as men, think of themselves as men, are treated as men by everyone around them, and yet can get pregnant. This is an objective fact. So either they don't like the fact or they don't like the words. Neither sounds like a good use of their time.
      - rayiner 3y ago
        The existence of that self-identification by a small minority of people is an objective fact. But what does that have to do with how the rest of society—medical professionals, schools, etc.—uses the terminology? Are you saying terminology isn’t important? It sounds like you think it’s very important.
        tptacek 3y ago
        According to a UCLA survey, over 1.6MM trans people live in the US. According to Iceland, 6,492 Icelanders live in the US. If you tried to tell someone "only a small minority of people identify as Icelanders", they'd look at you like a space alien.