4 ms·

If we were serious about doing it with renewables, we'd skip the batteries and build as much green hydrogen capacity as possible, plus hydrogen pipelines to mov

by _hypx 3y ago

If we were serious about doing it with renewables, we'd skip the batteries and build as much green hydrogen capacity as possible, plus hydrogen pipelines to move it around. People who bring up batteries have failed to realize that winter exists, and in winter you will need far more energy storage than you can possibly achieve with batteries.

ben_w 3y ago
> People who bring up batteries have failed to realize that winter exists They really haven't, and you really need to stop being so abrasive. I know you can do that, because you've managed it at least once with me on this topic.
- _hypx 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - natmaka 3y ago
    https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/180592/european-cooperation-could-provide-more-stable/ https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/180592/european-cooperation-...
    - _hypx 3y ago
      Which still doesn't solve the issue of intermittency at all. https://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/the-curse-of-the-dunkelflaute/111075 https://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/the-curse-of-the-d...
      - natmaka 3y ago
        Because Europe, when it comes to wind and solar, is under-equipped. Dunkelflaute are not european-wide (as noted in the article you referenced it: north of Europe), therefore production units outside of this geographical zone (along with storage, backup and curtailment) are efficient ways to cope. We have to build them. Moreover it "lasts up to 24 hours" (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkelflaute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkelflaute ).
        _hypx 3y ago
        > Most of these events occur from October to February; typically 50 to 150 hours per year, a single event usually lasts up to 24 hours. You can't even quote honestly...
        natmaka 3y ago
        "it" is here a Dunkelflaute, and "lasts up to 24 hours" is a fact. 50 to 150 hours total in a year is the total. Max 150 hours total during the course of 6 months, max 24 hours each, and in a small part of Europe: this is far from your "does not solve at all", indeed.
        _hypx 3y ago
        Nevermind I read that wrong. In reality, dunkelflaute last significantly longer than 24 hours: https://www.hydro.org/powerhouse/article/tackling-the-dunkelflaute-and-balancing-the-system-national-experts-discuss-how-markets-can-value-firm-and-flexible-resources-like-hydropower/ https://www.hydro.org/powerhouse/article/tackling-the-dunkel... > The chart shows that as many as 3.7% hours, which is equal to two weeks, of doldrums could occur during severe wind and solar droughts. This is fundamentally a death knell for conventional battery storage solutions. This is also what I mean by environmentalists not even having a clue. They are as delusional as the people who don't believe in climate change at all.
        natmaka 3y ago
        > dunkelflaute last significantly longer than 24 hours This study is local (to Minnesota). The smaller the studied zone, the higher the intermittency: nothing new here. The answer I already wrote is also pertinent here;: aggregation is key. During a Dunkelflaute neighbors can provide (also: storage, backup and curtailment). Therefore a way to considerably alleviate intermittency (even under Dunkelflaute) is to interconnect electrical zones (nations). Those interconnections are already progressing because they are justified even without any renewable sources, in order to cope with problems and to optimize. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_grid_of_Continental_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_grid_of_Continenta... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_super_grid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_super_grid https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S036054421831288X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03605... https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-26355-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-26355-z
  - dang 3y ago
    Yikes, please don't post like this here. It's badly against the site guidelines. If other people are wrong, the thing to do on HN is to respectfully and patiently explain how they are wrong, and to provide correct information. That way we can all learn something. If you don't want to do that, or don't have time, that's fine - but in that case please don't post until you do. Keep in mind that you're talking to thousands of readers and your impact on that silent audience is more important. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
ZeroGravitas 3y ago
The green hydrogen stuff is happening, (like hydrogen pipelines across the Mediterranean) but it's not really a competitor to batteries, but a complement. The primary use will be chemical and industrial and a demand sink for renewable power, then any use as electricity peak fuel source will be a bonus rather than the main purpose.
- _hypx 3y ago
  This ignores the part where no amount of batteries can actually solve the peak and valleys of renewable energy. Even partially solving this requires a truly ridiculous quantity of batteries, and likely equally absurd amounts of raw materials to build all of this. Ultimately, this is just another unsustainable idea likely motivated by people who own BEVs. Same story as those that went after mass transit in favor of more electric cars. It's a classic example of people who have hammers and see everything as a nail.
  - ZeroGravitas 3y ago
    There's lots of different combinations of solar, wind, batteries that will solve it. The lowest cost one likely has lots of solar and wind, and a small amount of storage, but it varies by location. Here's a worked example for Eastern India: https://www.wartsila.com/energy/towards-100-renewable-energy/atlas-of-100-percent-renewable-energy#/country/IN-E https://www.wartsila.com/energy/towards-100-renewable-energy...
    - _hypx 3y ago
      These people are simply lying. https://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/the-curse-of-the-dunkelflaute/111075 https://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/the-curse-of-the-d... Real experiences have show you cannot do it. You will have periods of major blackouts.

by _hypx 3y ago

ben_w 3y ago

> People who bring up batteries have failed to realize that winter exists They really haven't, and you really need to stop being so abrasive. I know you can do that, because you've managed it at least once with me on this topic.

_hypx 3y ago
[flagged]
- natmaka 3y ago
  https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/180592/european-cooperation-could-provide-more-stable/ https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/180592/european-cooperation-...
  - _hypx 3y ago
    Which still doesn't solve the issue of intermittency at all. https://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/the-curse-of-the-dunkelflaute/111075 https://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/the-curse-of-the-d...
    - natmaka 3y ago
      Because Europe, when it comes to wind and solar, is under-equipped. Dunkelflaute are not european-wide (as noted in the article you referenced it: north of Europe), therefore production units outside of this geographical zone (along with storage, backup and curtailment) are efficient ways to cope. We have to build them. Moreover it "lasts up to 24 hours" (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkelflaute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkelflaute ).
      - _hypx 3y ago
        > Most of these events occur from October to February; typically 50 to 150 hours per year, a single event usually lasts up to 24 hours. You can't even quote honestly...
        natmaka 3y ago
        "it" is here a Dunkelflaute, and "lasts up to 24 hours" is a fact. 50 to 150 hours total in a year is the total. Max 150 hours total during the course of 6 months, max 24 hours each, and in a small part of Europe: this is far from your "does not solve at all", indeed.
        _hypx 3y ago
        Nevermind I read that wrong. In reality, dunkelflaute last significantly longer than 24 hours: https://www.hydro.org/powerhouse/article/tackling-the-dunkelflaute-and-balancing-the-system-national-experts-discuss-how-markets-can-value-firm-and-flexible-resources-like-hydropower/ https://www.hydro.org/powerhouse/article/tackling-the-dunkel... > The chart shows that as many as 3.7% hours, which is equal to two weeks, of doldrums could occur during severe wind and solar droughts. This is fundamentally a death knell for conventional battery storage solutions. This is also what I mean by environmentalists not even having a clue. They are as delusional as the people who don't believe in climate change at all.
        natmaka 3y ago
        > dunkelflaute last significantly longer than 24 hours This study is local (to Minnesota). The smaller the studied zone, the higher the intermittency: nothing new here. The answer I already wrote is also pertinent here;: aggregation is key. During a Dunkelflaute neighbors can provide (also: storage, backup and curtailment). Therefore a way to considerably alleviate intermittency (even under Dunkelflaute) is to interconnect electrical zones (nations). Those interconnections are already progressing because they are justified even without any renewable sources, in order to cope with problems and to optimize. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_grid_of_Continental_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_grid_of_Continenta... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_super_grid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_super_grid https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S036054421831288X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03605... https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-26355-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-26355-z
- dang 3y ago
  Yikes, please don't post like this here. It's badly against the site guidelines. If other people are wrong, the thing to do on HN is to respectfully and patiently explain how they are wrong, and to provide correct information. That way we can all learn something. If you don't want to do that, or don't have time, that's fine - but in that case please don't post until you do. Keep in mind that you're talking to thousands of readers and your impact on that silent audience is more important. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

ZeroGravitas 3y ago

The green hydrogen stuff is happening, (like hydrogen pipelines across the Mediterranean) but it's not really a competitor to batteries, but a complement. The primary use will be chemical and industrial and a demand sink for renewable power, then any use as electricity peak fuel source will be a bonus rather than the main purpose.

_hypx 3y ago
This ignores the part where no amount of batteries can actually solve the peak and valleys of renewable energy. Even partially solving this requires a truly ridiculous quantity of batteries, and likely equally absurd amounts of raw materials to build all of this. Ultimately, this is just another unsustainable idea likely motivated by people who own BEVs. Same story as those that went after mass transit in favor of more electric cars. It's a classic example of people who have hammers and see everything as a nail.
- ZeroGravitas 3y ago
  There's lots of different combinations of solar, wind, batteries that will solve it. The lowest cost one likely has lots of solar and wind, and a small amount of storage, but it varies by location. Here's a worked example for Eastern India: https://www.wartsila.com/energy/towards-100-renewable-energy/atlas-of-100-percent-renewable-energy#/country/IN-E https://www.wartsila.com/energy/towards-100-renewable-energy...
  - _hypx 3y ago
    These people are simply lying. https://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/the-curse-of-the-dunkelflaute/111075 https://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/the-curse-of-the-d... Real experiences have show you cannot do it. You will have periods of major blackouts.