7 ms·

Sorry for the late reply! What you see on these dies can also be recreated manually with transistors, diodes, resistors, and maybe the odd capacitor. https://e

Sorry for the late reply! What you see on these dies can also be recreated manually with transistors, diodes, resistors, and maybe the odd capacitor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7400-series_integrated_circuits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7400-series_integrated_circuit... shows further down the on die circuit. There is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAND_gate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAND_gate to give you further examples, plus there are links to TTL logic in general and all sorts of other gates. It should be easy to find pages that show how to recreate this stuff with actual transistors and resistors (or youtube videos for that matter). The startup is pretty much just powering these chips and maybe having the input lines defaulting to for example "low" with resistors for a defined input and then output state (if the chips don't offer that themselves already -> chip manual). However, all that doesn't happen in zero time, same as signal propagation which needs time, but this is also part of such chip manuals to tell you about the timings, max frequencies etc. they can be operated at.

MichaelZuo 3y ago
> It should be easy to find pages that show how to recreate this stuff with actual transistors and resistors (or youtube videos for that matter). Well I haven't found any, even a how-to guide on linking together the gates on a breadboard and getting it to perform any operation that a TTL performs is way beyond the literature I've seen on the internet. Do you know of some reference source?
- pixelfarmer 3y ago
  Something like that? https://www.dummies.com/article/technology/electronics/circuitry/electronics-projects-how-to-create-a-transistor-nand-gate-circuit-179366/ https://www.dummies.com/article/technology/electronics/circu... or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTu3LwpF6XI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTu3LwpF6XI and there are truckloads more of these. There used to be electronics sets for kids with breadboards (some of them larger scale for easier physical handling then standard breadboards), and they'd had manuals with them explaining all the things. I remember that they also contained descriptions of basic gates like (N)AND, (N)OR, NOT, plus flip flops for storing 1 bit of data.
  - MichaelZuo 3y ago
    These all seem much simpler then replicating the real world functionality of even the simplest TTL chips. There's a huge gap between making a single gate or a few gates, and making something even as basic as the SN7400 from 1965. I don't think I'm the first person in history to have noticed this, but the lack of learning materials is very odd.
    - pixelfarmer 3y ago
      Yes, because these chips follow certain design goals the simple examples don't care about. For example, assume you start scaling things up, there is the problem of "load" (aka current). If you look at the chip manuals you will see how much current the inputs require to work, you will see how much max. current the outputs are able to handle, and now imagine you have to wire many of these chips together or drive other stuff with it. This is why for example for LEDs you may need an additional transistor or even a driver IC (for multiple LEDs) to get the LEDs working, because the chip itself is not able to handle the current load. There are things like switching frequencies, current load related stable output voltages which may require replacing passive elements (e.g. resistor) with active ones (diode / transistor), and so on. Read: This goes far beyond the core gate functionality to actually have something usable in a wide range of applications.
      - MichaelZuo 3y ago
        Right, so it seems impossible, currently, to completely understand even the simplest 8 bit CPU's boot-up process. The difference between the SN7400 and gates on a breadboard seems to be a black-box. At least there is not any published material in the whole world that actually explains this gap, that I could find. Have you managed to find any yet? As an aside, this surprised me, there's not a record of anyone, prior to this conversation, even raising the question, across all the major search engines, academic libraries, published books, etc...
        pixelfarmer 3y ago
        If I remember correctly there are actual simulations of a 6502 (the CPU used in C64 and other machines of that time) around, e.g. there was one done in Javascript even. Simulation as in simulating all the gates of the actual chip, and you can follow the process of what is happening. People have been recreating CPU parts and I think also full blown CPUs in Minecraft with this redstone stuff (and had to "de-pig" their machines). That runs at about the same level as the above simulation, sort of. There is also no "black magic" to a 7400, but with just superficial knowledge there is no way to break through that wall, i.e. you will have to go down that rabbit hole for quite some time before all the puzzle pieces fall into place. Then you should also be able to recreate a full 7400 on a breadboard, however, it may not look 1:1, but by then you are able to say why. What I wonder though: What do you hope to gain from that? These are "just" transistor circuits, you provide power, they are "ready". Yes, there are timings involved: Nothing is instant, power is ramped up, signal distribution takes time. There are many 8 bit CPUs/SoCs around, just grab one of the manuals, often they are split into 2, one aiming at the hardware side of things (voltages, currents, frequencies / timings, etc.), and one at the "logic" and how to program all the parts and pieces. One thing that is shared by all of them: A reset line or at least some reset timings for things to settle in the chip to a defined state, because, as noted, things are not instant. Afterwards the initial piece of software takes over.

MichaelZuo 3y ago

> It should be easy to find pages that show how to recreate this stuff with actual transistors and resistors (or youtube videos for that matter). Well I haven't found any, even a how-to guide on linking together the gates on a breadboard and getting it to perform any operation that a TTL performs is way beyond the literature I've seen on the internet. Do you know of some reference source?

pixelfarmer 3y ago
Something like that? https://www.dummies.com/article/technology/electronics/circuitry/electronics-projects-how-to-create-a-transistor-nand-gate-circuit-179366/ https://www.dummies.com/article/technology/electronics/circu... or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTu3LwpF6XI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTu3LwpF6XI and there are truckloads more of these. There used to be electronics sets for kids with breadboards (some of them larger scale for easier physical handling then standard breadboards), and they'd had manuals with them explaining all the things. I remember that they also contained descriptions of basic gates like (N)AND, (N)OR, NOT, plus flip flops for storing 1 bit of data.
- MichaelZuo 3y ago
  These all seem much simpler then replicating the real world functionality of even the simplest TTL chips. There's a huge gap between making a single gate or a few gates, and making something even as basic as the SN7400 from 1965. I don't think I'm the first person in history to have noticed this, but the lack of learning materials is very odd.
  - pixelfarmer 3y ago
    Yes, because these chips follow certain design goals the simple examples don't care about. For example, assume you start scaling things up, there is the problem of "load" (aka current). If you look at the chip manuals you will see how much current the inputs require to work, you will see how much max. current the outputs are able to handle, and now imagine you have to wire many of these chips together or drive other stuff with it. This is why for example for LEDs you may need an additional transistor or even a driver IC (for multiple LEDs) to get the LEDs working, because the chip itself is not able to handle the current load. There are things like switching frequencies, current load related stable output voltages which may require replacing passive elements (e.g. resistor) with active ones (diode / transistor), and so on. Read: This goes far beyond the core gate functionality to actually have something usable in a wide range of applications.
    - MichaelZuo 3y ago
      Right, so it seems impossible, currently, to completely understand even the simplest 8 bit CPU's boot-up process. The difference between the SN7400 and gates on a breadboard seems to be a black-box. At least there is not any published material in the whole world that actually explains this gap, that I could find. Have you managed to find any yet? As an aside, this surprised me, there's not a record of anyone, prior to this conversation, even raising the question, across all the major search engines, academic libraries, published books, etc...
      - pixelfarmer 3y ago
        If I remember correctly there are actual simulations of a 6502 (the CPU used in C64 and other machines of that time) around, e.g. there was one done in Javascript even. Simulation as in simulating all the gates of the actual chip, and you can follow the process of what is happening. People have been recreating CPU parts and I think also full blown CPUs in Minecraft with this redstone stuff (and had to "de-pig" their machines). That runs at about the same level as the above simulation, sort of. There is also no "black magic" to a 7400, but with just superficial knowledge there is no way to break through that wall, i.e. you will have to go down that rabbit hole for quite some time before all the puzzle pieces fall into place. Then you should also be able to recreate a full 7400 on a breadboard, however, it may not look 1:1, but by then you are able to say why. What I wonder though: What do you hope to gain from that? These are "just" transistor circuits, you provide power, they are "ready". Yes, there are timings involved: Nothing is instant, power is ramped up, signal distribution takes time. There are many 8 bit CPUs/SoCs around, just grab one of the manuals, often they are split into 2, one aiming at the hardware side of things (voltages, currents, frequencies / timings, etc.), and one at the "logic" and how to program all the parts and pieces. One thing that is shared by all of them: A reset line or at least some reset timings for things to settle in the chip to a defined state, because, as noted, things are not instant. Afterwards the initial piece of software takes over.