5 ms·

Be careful what you wish for. It reminds me of the Four Pests campaign in China around 1960, especially the extermination of sparrows, one of the causes of th

Be careful what you wish for. It reminds me of the Four Pests campaign in China around 1960, especially the extermination of sparrows, one of the causes of the Great Chinese Famine. 500k feral cats: that's a lot of mice, pigeons and young rats! Without predators like feral cats, NY's rat problem could become even more, well, interesting.

vjk800 3y ago
That's what I was also thinking. The cats have been there for some time now (I assume there were lots of feral cats even before the pandemic) and the local ecosystem has somehow adapted to/with them. Getting rid of them is probably going to have unwanted consequences. Who's to say cats can't live independently among humans (and rats and other animals) in cities? Someone is probably going to bring up the argument that the cats are not taken care of and have diseases, parasites, injuries, etc., but so do all animals living in the wild. The only difference is that you don't see the parasite infested malnourished stoats in the woods every day like you see your neighbourhood cat colony.
- gjulianm 3y ago
  > Who's to say cats can't live independently among humans (and rats and other animals) in cities? I knew about this nonprofit via a cat colony caretaker, @poetssquarecats (I follow her on Tiktok and she's amazing) that talks about the struggles of feral cats and uncontrolled cat colonies. Yes, of course animals in the wild also suffer from diseases, parasites, and injuries. But these animals aren't in the wild. They're far more constrained than in the wild, with a lot more access to food, and with a lot more dangers. One of the problems is that, in those conditions, the number of cats can and does explode (female cats can become pregnant at 4-6 months old already, and they have on average 16 kittens a year in multiple litters). And yes, of course getting rid of them is going to have unwanted consequences, but having them has other unwanted consequences. For example, as the article mentions, birdlife is severely affected, which can also have other unwanted consequences. I think that in that case it's better to have the cause under control: either way it's going to have unwanted consequences, but at least when you control it you know that it's happening.
  - Cullinet 3y ago
    > female cats can become pregnant at 4-6 months old already, and they have on average 16 kittens a year in multiple litters). This totally was not true in my living memory of fifty years. Edit : like this is totally news to me which frightens me knowing that could really mean that we've passed a irreparable inflection point in a number of the most stabilized metabolic endocrine and hormonal management systems that have taken the entirety of history to develop into sustainable life. Is systemic oestrogen poisoning to blame? Or has there been effective speciation as a consequence already, which might demand humane euthanasia? From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8300725/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8300725/ : "Estrogens occurring in the environment can negatively affect the organisms, such as animals, through phenomena such as feminization, dysregulation of natural processes related to reproduction[...] Edit : IF what you are saying is true then de facto there's been speciation because there's no way for prior variants of this animal to co exist socially or biologically in any compatible lifespan and neither could the cats I thought existed exist in any shared habitat for reasons of disease and competition. The only possible conclusion is that the very design for life on the planet earth is already proven to be being erased before our very eyes.
    - DonHopkins 3y ago
      At least gay frogs don't breed huge families, but adopt instead.
    - gjulianm 3y ago
      Another, more reasonable hypothesis, is that you were wrong about your preconceptions of cat reproduction. The time to reach sexual maturity seems to be pretty well established, and the number of kittens of course will vary depending on conditions but it's not rare to be in those cases of female cats having multiple litters in a single year. Cat pregnancies last two months approximately, so it's not unreasonable at all.
throwaway675309 3y ago
The article mentions that the cats may be responsible for control of mice population, but apparently attacks on the New York rats are relatively rare being far larger and more aggressive.
- ycombinete 3y ago
  Time for foxes or bigger stray cats
  - dmix 3y ago
    And then we’ll be stuck with gorillas https://youtu.be/P9yruQM1ggc https://youtu.be/P9yruQM1ggc
- MagicMoonlight 3y ago
  How would anyone know how many rats the cats are eating?
  - danielbln 3y ago
    Population correlation studies, camera traps, mark-recapture studies, GPS tracking to understand spatial relationships between cats and rats, analyzing cat stomach content and so on.
- badpun 3y ago
  Apparently rodents avoid places that have a scent of a cat. So, cats don't even have to hunt them to have an effect on the population.
  - iosono88 3y ago
    [dead]
  - kaikai 3y ago
    Unless the rats have toxoplasmosis
jghn 3y ago
Complete anecdata but this appears to have happened where I live. Urban-ish neighborhood (it'd be "urban" to most of the USA, but not to say someone living in Manhattan). The area in general has a lot of rat issues. But our little half block radius never did. There was a feral cat colony that lived in an abandoned building right at the epicenter. Few years back that building was torn down and new condos went up, and the feral cat colony is no more. Go figure, our little neck of the woods now has the same rat issues as everyone else near us.
toss1 3y ago
Yup. Similarly, in the Everglades the invasive Burmese Pythons introduced in the 1970s are multiplying, killing predators like bobcats, and the rats are taking over, further destroying the ecosystem. [0] [0] https://www.livescience.com/animals/snakes/burmese-pythons-are-helping-rats-take-over-floridas-everglades-and-that-could-help-spread-disease https://www.livescience.com/animals/snakes/burmese-pythons-a...
ianbicking 3y ago
Our neighborhood feral cat population has gone way down and our bunny population has gone way up. When I saw a cat almost catch and kill a baby bunny it dawned on me that these might be related.

vjk800 3y ago

That's what I was also thinking. The cats have been there for some time now (I assume there were lots of feral cats even before the pandemic) and the local ecosystem has somehow adapted to/with them. Getting rid of them is probably going to have unwanted consequences. Who's to say cats can't live independently among humans (and rats and other animals) in cities? Someone is probably going to bring up the argument that the cats are not taken care of and have diseases, parasites, injuries, etc., but so do all animals living in the wild. The only difference is that you don't see the parasite infested malnourished stoats in the woods every day like you see your neighbourhood cat colony.

gjulianm 3y ago
> Who's to say cats can't live independently among humans (and rats and other animals) in cities? I knew about this nonprofit via a cat colony caretaker, @poetssquarecats (I follow her on Tiktok and she's amazing) that talks about the struggles of feral cats and uncontrolled cat colonies. Yes, of course animals in the wild also suffer from diseases, parasites, and injuries. But these animals aren't in the wild. They're far more constrained than in the wild, with a lot more access to food, and with a lot more dangers. One of the problems is that, in those conditions, the number of cats can and does explode (female cats can become pregnant at 4-6 months old already, and they have on average 16 kittens a year in multiple litters). And yes, of course getting rid of them is going to have unwanted consequences, but having them has other unwanted consequences. For example, as the article mentions, birdlife is severely affected, which can also have other unwanted consequences. I think that in that case it's better to have the cause under control: either way it's going to have unwanted consequences, but at least when you control it you know that it's happening.
- Cullinet 3y ago
  > female cats can become pregnant at 4-6 months old already, and they have on average 16 kittens a year in multiple litters). This totally was not true in my living memory of fifty years. Edit : like this is totally news to me which frightens me knowing that could really mean that we've passed a irreparable inflection point in a number of the most stabilized metabolic endocrine and hormonal management systems that have taken the entirety of history to develop into sustainable life. Is systemic oestrogen poisoning to blame? Or has there been effective speciation as a consequence already, which might demand humane euthanasia? From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8300725/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8300725/ : "Estrogens occurring in the environment can negatively affect the organisms, such as animals, through phenomena such as feminization, dysregulation of natural processes related to reproduction[...] Edit : IF what you are saying is true then de facto there's been speciation because there's no way for prior variants of this animal to co exist socially or biologically in any compatible lifespan and neither could the cats I thought existed exist in any shared habitat for reasons of disease and competition. The only possible conclusion is that the very design for life on the planet earth is already proven to be being erased before our very eyes.
  - DonHopkins 3y ago
    At least gay frogs don't breed huge families, but adopt instead.
  - gjulianm 3y ago
    Another, more reasonable hypothesis, is that you were wrong about your preconceptions of cat reproduction. The time to reach sexual maturity seems to be pretty well established, and the number of kittens of course will vary depending on conditions but it's not rare to be in those cases of female cats having multiple litters in a single year. Cat pregnancies last two months approximately, so it's not unreasonable at all.

throwaway675309 3y ago

The article mentions that the cats may be responsible for control of mice population, but apparently attacks on the New York rats are relatively rare being far larger and more aggressive.

ycombinete 3y ago
Time for foxes or bigger stray cats
- dmix 3y ago
  And then we’ll be stuck with gorillas https://youtu.be/P9yruQM1ggc https://youtu.be/P9yruQM1ggc
MagicMoonlight 3y ago
How would anyone know how many rats the cats are eating?
- danielbln 3y ago
  Population correlation studies, camera traps, mark-recapture studies, GPS tracking to understand spatial relationships between cats and rats, analyzing cat stomach content and so on.
badpun 3y ago
Apparently rodents avoid places that have a scent of a cat. So, cats don't even have to hunt them to have an effect on the population.
- iosono88 3y ago
  [dead]
- kaikai 3y ago
  Unless the rats have toxoplasmosis

jghn 3y ago

Complete anecdata but this appears to have happened where I live. Urban-ish neighborhood (it'd be "urban" to most of the USA, but not to say someone living in Manhattan). The area in general has a lot of rat issues. But our little half block radius never did. There was a feral cat colony that lived in an abandoned building right at the epicenter. Few years back that building was torn down and new condos went up, and the feral cat colony is no more. Go figure, our little neck of the woods now has the same rat issues as everyone else near us.

toss1 3y ago

Yup. Similarly, in the Everglades the invasive Burmese Pythons introduced in the 1970s are multiplying, killing predators like bobcats, and the rats are taking over, further destroying the ecosystem. [0] [0] https://www.livescience.com/animals/snakes/burmese-pythons-are-helping-rats-take-over-floridas-everglades-and-that-could-help-spread-disease https://www.livescience.com/animals/snakes/burmese-pythons-a...

ianbicking 3y ago

Our neighborhood feral cat population has gone way down and our bunny population has gone way up. When I saw a cat almost catch and kill a baby bunny it dawned on me that these might be related.