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> I think most will agree that the CCS connector is godawful compared to Tesla's NACS. But why? I'm asking a different "why": Why is CCS (allegedly?) "godawful

> I think most will agree that the CCS connector is godawful compared to Tesla's NACS. But why? I'm asking a different "why": Why is CCS (allegedly?) "godawful compared"? Because of size? Or is there something else? What makes Telsa's (supposedly?) 'good' or at least 'better'?

ajross 3y ago
It's less than half the size, takes maybe 1/4 the force to insert, doesn't have a fiddly mechanical push-pin in the connector, and is locked by the car vs. the connector. It shares the same connectors for both DC and AC and will autodetect. It even delivers more current, though at 400V instead of the 800V that recent CCS devices can deliver. But most of the magic is that there's no UI to the charger device. You pull in, plug in, and walk away. Literally. Your phone will buzz automatically when the charge reaches the level required for your next leg. This part remains Tesla-only. CCS devices at these chargers need to start the current manually with the app.
- vel0city 3y ago
  > But most of the magic is that there's no UI to the charger device. This is good, and this is bad. It's yet another charging app I need to manage my payment info. I can't just arbitrarily choose a different payment method when I'm there. I'd greatly prefer just a basic card reader so I can choose a payment method. Sure, plug and charge if I didn't supply payment method ahead of time, but otherwise it's just another charging app I need to manage.
  - amluto 3y ago
    I would argue it’s 100% bad. Tesla should not have a monopoly on determining whether a car gets to charge when it plugs in. But apps with accounts and ToS and such should be banned outright IMO for any charger or at least any charger that receives any sort of public funding. Anyone with a compatible car should be able to charge, without an account, just like at a gas station.
    - Ajedi32 3y ago
      Yeah I like the idea of payment happening automatically, but that should be optional and implemented via kind of standard payment protocol between the car and the charging station, not via a proprietary app.
    - cavisne 3y ago
      The plug and charge protocol is open https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118 While what you say is true about a gas station, I think a lot of the standard privacy arguments dont really hold for a car. Its literally illegal to drive a car without it being built to the standard the government likes, with an identifiable ID printed on the outside of it, with a valid license with your name and date of birth on, and current registration. Let alone the fact that the vast majority of cars are sold with gps trackers bolted on if they are financed. Requiring a credit card tied to that vehicle is the least of your privacy worries.
  - toast0 3y ago
    I've yet to see a charger with a card reader or that accepts currency. I suspect it's because there would be too many transactions of small value that the payment processing fees are more than the electricity. Which gets you into the yucky mess of I owed chargepoint $0.11, and they charged me $20 and are going to hold onto the rest of my money forever.
    - vel0city 3y ago
      It was definitely rare to see a couple of years ago but most dispensers I've seen installed in the last year or so around me seemed to have actual credit card terminals. I've used a few.
      - toast0 3y ago
        Fair enough. I think it makes sense as the market develops and charging is less PHEVs like mine and more full EVs with large batteries that can pull a meaningful amount of dollars out of the plug.
  - cavisne 3y ago
    Ford has already announced they will support plug and charge on Tesla chargers also The whole paying on a terminal/using an app thing is the wrong approach I think. Ultimately to charge there is a handshake protocol between two computers, just sort out payment then (and thats the standard NAC supports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118) Adding a payment terminal is just adding another handshake and computer into the mix, a computer that needs to be (mostly) connected to the internet, exposed to the elements, and vulnerable to skimming devices.
_ea1k 3y ago
It is almost as big as the gap between MiniUSB (not Micro, Mini) and Lightning. The plug is smaller and self-locates, but is also significantly more robust.
steveBK123 3y ago
It is 2x the size, 4x the weight, and clearly more prone to failure because CCS stations have failure rates easily 10x the rate of Tesla. It is incredibly rare to see a broken Tesla charger, and if you do, for it not to be repaired by the time you come back. Even at big 12-16 stall stations, it's incredibly rare to see a single one broken. CCS chargers being broken is the norm, with typical 2 or 4 stall stations often having 1 broken. It's not unusual for the broken stall to go unprepared for weeks to months.
- tdeck 3y ago
  Is it the connector itself that's broken? Or something about the connector's electrical characteristics that causes the charger to break? It seems like the maintenance schedule is orthogonal to the connector design.
  - CameronNemo 3y ago
    AIUI the connector requires a clip (at least go some vehicles), and if that clip breaks you cannot charge. At least that happened to me with some L2 chargers.
  - steveBK123 3y ago
    Very much yes it would seem. Bigger plug also goes with bigger heavier cables, the liquid cables require cooling to charge at high speed, one of the many failure rates is the cooling system which then reverts the chargers to operate at 20% power. Another of the failures is the locking mechanism, which is obviously strained by the heavy cable. The plug has to be put in just-so at sort of an awkward alignment/angle, doesn't go in easily like a NACS plug. Presumably the alignment leads to a lot of thrashing wear & tear. I simply never saw Tesla stalls break at this rate. It isn't getting better either. EA changed brands and some of their NEW stalls begun failing. This after they abandoned maintenance at some sites as they were planning to replace with the new stalls. The other excuse is EA is fully beholden to OEMs for parts whereas Tesla makes their own. So another EA excuse has been they can't get parts. You don't read about Tesla chargers getting stuck to cars / frying cars / etc as the same rate. Remember in the US there's probably 10x more Tesla cars in the wild, so you should hear charging horror stories at 10x the rate if their chargers were equally bad. Instead, you hear 10x the CCS horror stories in US than you do Tesla, from 1/10th the population of cars. Honestly I just don't care about all these "principle of the thing" arguments, I just want to charge my car. And we aren't going to make a mass EV transition without working, ubiquitous, easy charging. Tesla is the only company to even remotely have this going on right now. And again I say this as a Tesla seller, BMW owner, Elon disliker.

ajross 3y ago

It's less than half the size, takes maybe 1/4 the force to insert, doesn't have a fiddly mechanical push-pin in the connector, and is locked by the car vs. the connector. It shares the same connectors for both DC and AC and will autodetect. It even delivers more current, though at 400V instead of the 800V that recent CCS devices can deliver. But most of the magic is that there's no UI to the charger device. You pull in, plug in, and walk away. Literally. Your phone will buzz automatically when the charge reaches the level required for your next leg. This part remains Tesla-only. CCS devices at these chargers need to start the current manually with the app.

vel0city 3y ago
> But most of the magic is that there's no UI to the charger device. This is good, and this is bad. It's yet another charging app I need to manage my payment info. I can't just arbitrarily choose a different payment method when I'm there. I'd greatly prefer just a basic card reader so I can choose a payment method. Sure, plug and charge if I didn't supply payment method ahead of time, but otherwise it's just another charging app I need to manage.
- amluto 3y ago
  I would argue it’s 100% bad. Tesla should not have a monopoly on determining whether a car gets to charge when it plugs in. But apps with accounts and ToS and such should be banned outright IMO for any charger or at least any charger that receives any sort of public funding. Anyone with a compatible car should be able to charge, without an account, just like at a gas station.
  - Ajedi32 3y ago
    Yeah I like the idea of payment happening automatically, but that should be optional and implemented via kind of standard payment protocol between the car and the charging station, not via a proprietary app.
  - cavisne 3y ago
    The plug and charge protocol is open https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118 While what you say is true about a gas station, I think a lot of the standard privacy arguments dont really hold for a car. Its literally illegal to drive a car without it being built to the standard the government likes, with an identifiable ID printed on the outside of it, with a valid license with your name and date of birth on, and current registration. Let alone the fact that the vast majority of cars are sold with gps trackers bolted on if they are financed. Requiring a credit card tied to that vehicle is the least of your privacy worries.
- toast0 3y ago
  I've yet to see a charger with a card reader or that accepts currency. I suspect it's because there would be too many transactions of small value that the payment processing fees are more than the electricity. Which gets you into the yucky mess of I owed chargepoint $0.11, and they charged me $20 and are going to hold onto the rest of my money forever.
  - vel0city 3y ago
    It was definitely rare to see a couple of years ago but most dispensers I've seen installed in the last year or so around me seemed to have actual credit card terminals. I've used a few.
    - toast0 3y ago
      Fair enough. I think it makes sense as the market develops and charging is less PHEVs like mine and more full EVs with large batteries that can pull a meaningful amount of dollars out of the plug.
- cavisne 3y ago
  Ford has already announced they will support plug and charge on Tesla chargers also The whole paying on a terminal/using an app thing is the wrong approach I think. Ultimately to charge there is a handshake protocol between two computers, just sort out payment then (and thats the standard NAC supports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118) Adding a payment terminal is just adding another handshake and computer into the mix, a computer that needs to be (mostly) connected to the internet, exposed to the elements, and vulnerable to skimming devices.

_ea1k 3y ago

It is almost as big as the gap between MiniUSB (not Micro, Mini) and Lightning. The plug is smaller and self-locates, but is also significantly more robust.

steveBK123 3y ago

It is 2x the size, 4x the weight, and clearly more prone to failure because CCS stations have failure rates easily 10x the rate of Tesla. It is incredibly rare to see a broken Tesla charger, and if you do, for it not to be repaired by the time you come back. Even at big 12-16 stall stations, it's incredibly rare to see a single one broken. CCS chargers being broken is the norm, with typical 2 or 4 stall stations often having 1 broken. It's not unusual for the broken stall to go unprepared for weeks to months.

tdeck 3y ago
Is it the connector itself that's broken? Or something about the connector's electrical characteristics that causes the charger to break? It seems like the maintenance schedule is orthogonal to the connector design.
- CameronNemo 3y ago
  AIUI the connector requires a clip (at least go some vehicles), and if that clip breaks you cannot charge. At least that happened to me with some L2 chargers.
- steveBK123 3y ago
  Very much yes it would seem. Bigger plug also goes with bigger heavier cables, the liquid cables require cooling to charge at high speed, one of the many failure rates is the cooling system which then reverts the chargers to operate at 20% power. Another of the failures is the locking mechanism, which is obviously strained by the heavy cable. The plug has to be put in just-so at sort of an awkward alignment/angle, doesn't go in easily like a NACS plug. Presumably the alignment leads to a lot of thrashing wear & tear. I simply never saw Tesla stalls break at this rate. It isn't getting better either. EA changed brands and some of their NEW stalls begun failing. This after they abandoned maintenance at some sites as they were planning to replace with the new stalls. The other excuse is EA is fully beholden to OEMs for parts whereas Tesla makes their own. So another EA excuse has been they can't get parts. You don't read about Tesla chargers getting stuck to cars / frying cars / etc as the same rate. Remember in the US there's probably 10x more Tesla cars in the wild, so you should hear charging horror stories at 10x the rate if their chargers were equally bad. Instead, you hear 10x the CCS horror stories in US than you do Tesla, from 1/10th the population of cars. Honestly I just don't care about all these "principle of the thing" arguments, I just want to charge my car. And we aren't going to make a mass EV transition without working, ubiquitous, easy charging. Tesla is the only company to even remotely have this going on right now. And again I say this as a Tesla seller, BMW owner, Elon disliker.