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Since all companies are under the control of their respective government, I think the most prudent course of action on the individual level is to try to use ser

Since all companies are under the control of their respective government, I think the most prudent course of action on the individual level is to try to use services controlled by a government that has no practical control over your life Instead of thinking of it as us vs. them, think of it as your own personal threat assessment. Google is all nice and friendly now. They serve all that JS and Fonts for free and give you free storage, calendars, teleconferencing etc... but how about in 10 years when they start loosing revenue to some AI startup that is better than search? Will they be so nice with your data then? I use a Xiaomi phone , a Huawei laptop and an Aliyun email .. if they are exfiltrating my data and know which AI porn I look at.. It has zero impact on my life. They're not even able to target advertising to me because they don't control the relevant platforms (I guess they could sell my data to Google, but it seems unlikely). I hope the Chinese are doing similarly and using western platforms :)

prottog 3y ago
> It has zero impact on my life It has zero impact on your life now, but you should strongly prefer that they don't, so as to keep your options open in the future. An analogy might be making sure you don't leak a sextape of yourself when you're young and don't care about who sees it, in case you run for public office in your 50s.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
  I think the ideal is that nobody has your private data, but that seems impossible to accomplish without living in a cave. Big tech feels entitled to know everything about everyone.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
naraga 3y ago
You are datapoint for them as well as a loaded gun they can use to shoot. If they own silicon under your hands they can do almost anything.
NoRelToEmber 3y ago
> a government that has no practical control over your life As long as you don't try to get hired by a company owned by or having a large presence in China. Though even otherwise, you may be underestimating their influence: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/09/14/china-opens-unofficial-police-stations-britain-hunt-people-return/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/09/14/china-open... https://www.smh.com.au/national/chinese-australian-voters-punished-coalition-for-hostile-rhetoric-20220525-p5aoem.html https://www.smh.com.au/national/chinese-australian-voters-pu... For the release of “Fantastic Beasts” in China, Warner Bros edited out any references to a gay relationship. - https://variety.com/2022/film/news/fantastic-beasts-3-gay-dialogue-removed-warner-bros-explains-1235230373/ https://variety.com/2022/film/news/fantastic-beasts-3-gay-di... China's unofficial trade war pressures Apple to build its economy and technology - https://www.theinformation.com/articles/facing-hostile-chinese-authorities-apple-ceo-signed-275-billion-deal-with-them https://www.theinformation.com/articles/facing-hostile-chine... https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-21/china-australia-political-donations/7766654 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-21/china-australia-polit... https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-makes-sure-everyone-writes-taiwans-name-just-soeven-a-colorado-high-school-11631304386 https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-makes-sure-everyone-write... - The CCP forced a Colorado highschool to edit their website to say Taiwan is a province of China. The school complied, so that the kids could attend United Nations Commission on the Status of Women. https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinese-censorship-surveillance-found-australian-universities-rights-group-2021-06-29/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinese-censorship-surve... https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/116723925/posters-depicting-hong-kong-protests-removed-by-massey-university-within-12-hours https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/116723925/posters-depicting... Disney Pressed American Magazine to Delete Star Director’s Quote Criticizing China - https://www.nationalreview.com/news/disney-pressed-american-magazine-to-delete-star-directors-quote-criticizing-china-report/ https://www.nationalreview.com/news/disney-pressed-american-... Apple Told Some Apple TV+ Show Developers Not To Anger China - https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexkantrowitz/apple-china-tv-protesters-hong-kong-tim-cook https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexkantrowitz/apple-ch...
- doxeddaily 3y ago
  I am in the videogame business. At this point we basically have zero access points into China that are legal. Either release illegally (and be copied anyway) or don't release in China. Theoretically there are "channels" but they are in practice for a select few who partner with Chinese companies and give them a huge portion of any profits. Meanwhile not only can any Chinese company release games in the USA they also can and have been buying huge amounts of our companies and IP.
Sanzig 3y ago
This seems like a great way to hand China blackmail material that they can leverage against you. Obviously, I don't like government surveillance, but at least in the west we are (1) generally protected from the worst excesses by legislation, and (2) generally aligned with our own government's priorities on a very high level view (eg: support for liberal democracy), if not the specifics. Those two do not hold for China, especially for data from a foreigner. Even if you don't hold a security clearance, you can still be a target for hostile foreign actors, especially in the tech sector. What happens if a foreign actor with blackmail material on you threatens to destroy your life unless you cough up implementation details for a system you're working on, or open up a backdoor? If you are concerned about surveillance, fine, but there are much better ways to avoid it by using privacy-respecting self hosted and commercial services. Replacing American big tech with Chinese big tech is just trading bad for worse.
- contrarian1234 3y ago
  Mass surveillance and the abuse of personal data either by the government or companies (for instance predatory advertisement or things like being denied loans) are things that can potentially negatively affect a large swath of the population in a future where the government and companies go rotten. Yes, if you're in the 0.1% that is working on nuclear missiles or technological equivalents - and you are a direct target of espionage.. then my train of thought clearly wouldn't apply. The vast majority of the population is of no interest to foreign intelligence.. and never will be. Fantasizing that some day you will be is loosing sight of the big, and much more likely threat closer to home
  - jstarfish 3y ago
    > if you're in the 0.1% that is working on nuclear missiles or technological equivalents - and you are a direct target of espionage.. then my train of thought clearly wouldn't apply. The vast majority of the population is of no interest to foreign intelligence.. and never will be. This isn't James Bond. The only way you could exhibit more ignorance about espionage would be by suggesting spies in balaclavas rappel through laser arrays to hack mainframes and steal blueprints. Foreign intelligence services target people in far more banal positions, all the way down to lowly network engineers, with boring goals like compromising communications infrastructure so the country you're about to invade can't coordinate defense.
azinman2 3y ago
They can’t do the opposite because they’re all almost blocked, and what isn’t lives in servers in China under Chinese control.

prottog 3y ago

> It has zero impact on my life It has zero impact on your life now, but you should strongly prefer that they don't, so as to keep your options open in the future. An analogy might be making sure you don't leak a sextape of yourself when you're young and don't care about who sees it, in case you run for public office in your 50s.

0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
I think the ideal is that nobody has your private data, but that seems impossible to accomplish without living in a cave. Big tech feels entitled to know everything about everyone.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

naraga 3y ago

You are datapoint for them as well as a loaded gun they can use to shoot. If they own silicon under your hands they can do almost anything.

NoRelToEmber 3y ago

> a government that has no practical control over your life As long as you don't try to get hired by a company owned by or having a large presence in China. Though even otherwise, you may be underestimating their influence: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/09/14/china-opens-unofficial-police-stations-britain-hunt-people-return/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/09/14/china-open... https://www.smh.com.au/national/chinese-australian-voters-punished-coalition-for-hostile-rhetoric-20220525-p5aoem.html https://www.smh.com.au/national/chinese-australian-voters-pu... For the release of “Fantastic Beasts” in China, Warner Bros edited out any references to a gay relationship. - https://variety.com/2022/film/news/fantastic-beasts-3-gay-dialogue-removed-warner-bros-explains-1235230373/ https://variety.com/2022/film/news/fantastic-beasts-3-gay-di... China's unofficial trade war pressures Apple to build its economy and technology - https://www.theinformation.com/articles/facing-hostile-chinese-authorities-apple-ceo-signed-275-billion-deal-with-them https://www.theinformation.com/articles/facing-hostile-chine... https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-21/china-australia-political-donations/7766654 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-21/china-australia-polit... https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-makes-sure-everyone-writes-taiwans-name-just-soeven-a-colorado-high-school-11631304386 https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-makes-sure-everyone-write... - The CCP forced a Colorado highschool to edit their website to say Taiwan is a province of China. The school complied, so that the kids could attend United Nations Commission on the Status of Women. https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinese-censorship-surveillance-found-australian-universities-rights-group-2021-06-29/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinese-censorship-surve... https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/116723925/posters-depicting-hong-kong-protests-removed-by-massey-university-within-12-hours https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/116723925/posters-depicting... Disney Pressed American Magazine to Delete Star Director’s Quote Criticizing China - https://www.nationalreview.com/news/disney-pressed-american-magazine-to-delete-star-directors-quote-criticizing-china-report/ https://www.nationalreview.com/news/disney-pressed-american-... Apple Told Some Apple TV+ Show Developers Not To Anger China - https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexkantrowitz/apple-china-tv-protesters-hong-kong-tim-cook https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexkantrowitz/apple-ch...

doxeddaily 3y ago
I am in the videogame business. At this point we basically have zero access points into China that are legal. Either release illegally (and be copied anyway) or don't release in China. Theoretically there are "channels" but they are in practice for a select few who partner with Chinese companies and give them a huge portion of any profits. Meanwhile not only can any Chinese company release games in the USA they also can and have been buying huge amounts of our companies and IP.

Sanzig 3y ago

This seems like a great way to hand China blackmail material that they can leverage against you. Obviously, I don't like government surveillance, but at least in the west we are (1) generally protected from the worst excesses by legislation, and (2) generally aligned with our own government's priorities on a very high level view (eg: support for liberal democracy), if not the specifics. Those two do not hold for China, especially for data from a foreigner. Even if you don't hold a security clearance, you can still be a target for hostile foreign actors, especially in the tech sector. What happens if a foreign actor with blackmail material on you threatens to destroy your life unless you cough up implementation details for a system you're working on, or open up a backdoor? If you are concerned about surveillance, fine, but there are much better ways to avoid it by using privacy-respecting self hosted and commercial services. Replacing American big tech with Chinese big tech is just trading bad for worse.

contrarian1234 3y ago
Mass surveillance and the abuse of personal data either by the government or companies (for instance predatory advertisement or things like being denied loans) are things that can potentially negatively affect a large swath of the population in a future where the government and companies go rotten. Yes, if you're in the 0.1% that is working on nuclear missiles or technological equivalents - and you are a direct target of espionage.. then my train of thought clearly wouldn't apply. The vast majority of the population is of no interest to foreign intelligence.. and never will be. Fantasizing that some day you will be is loosing sight of the big, and much more likely threat closer to home
- jstarfish 3y ago
  > if you're in the 0.1% that is working on nuclear missiles or technological equivalents - and you are a direct target of espionage.. then my train of thought clearly wouldn't apply. The vast majority of the population is of no interest to foreign intelligence.. and never will be. This isn't James Bond. The only way you could exhibit more ignorance about espionage would be by suggesting spies in balaclavas rappel through laser arrays to hack mainframes and steal blueprints. Foreign intelligence services target people in far more banal positions, all the way down to lowly network engineers, with boring goals like compromising communications infrastructure so the country you're about to invade can't coordinate defense.

azinman2 3y ago

They can’t do the opposite because they’re all almost blocked, and what isn’t lives in servers in China under Chinese control.