5 ms·

The point is of course not whether the national vote would happen to agree with what the puerto Ricans would want, but the fact the whatever they want (which ma

The point is of course not whether the national vote would happen to agree with what the puerto Ricans would want, but the fact the whatever they want (which may or may not be statehood, don't forget a lot of people there are against statehood) would be drowned out by the rest of the country, and despite being ostensibly democratic, that doesn't mean it (nation vote) is the best solution.

lapcat 3y ago
The majority of Puerto Ricans and the majority of Americans both support Puerto Rican statehood. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Puerto_Rican_status_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Puerto_Rican_status_refer... The only thing stopping Puerto Rican statehood is the lack of majority rule in the US, and the fact that Republicans are heavily against Puerto Rican statehood. It's a partisan issue: "The majority of Democrats showed support for statehood for both D.C. (61.8%) and Puerto Rico (69.7%)" while among Republicans, only 26.7% supported D.C. statehood and 34.8% supported Puerto Rican statehood.
- foolswisdom 3y ago
  The majority of supporting Puerto Ricans is quite slim (especially compared to the national support). A couple percentage points lower and the majority wouldn't be in favor. So my point was that if you _determined_ the question in a national vote versus a local vote, locals might be quite upset about it (particularly those who lost - if it was a local loss, then they fit to participate and lost, if it was national, then they never got a say). Although, if you're now switching to argue that the national opinion is _against_ (or at least the republicans would block it), then this actually excellently illustrates the original point that there are decisions which shouldn't be made nationally instead of locally!
  - lapcat 3y ago
    > The majority of supporting Puerto Ricans is quite slim (especially compared to the national support). A couple percentage points lower and the majority wouldn't be in favor. So? Majorities are often slim. Just look at US elections. The difference is whether you have majority rule or minority rule. > Although, if you're now switching to argue that the national opinion is _against_ (or at least the republicans would block it) I'm not switching, I'm just saying it's a partisan issue, and Republicans happen to be over-represented in the national government due to territorial representation, which is how they're able to block Puerto Rican statehood, against the wishes of the majority. And it's pretty obvious why Republican leaders want to block Puerto Rican and D.C. statehood, because that would likely lead to additional Senate and House seats for Democrats.
    - foolswisdom 3y ago
      > So? Majorities are often slim. Just look at US elections. The difference is whether you have majority rule or minority rule. Slim majorities mean the outcome of the election is not obvious - it's possible that the vote would have a different outcome. > I'm not switching, I'm just saying it's a partisan issue It illustrates the point well regardless.
    - Xorakios 3y ago
      conflating Puerto Rico and DC statehood is frustrating to me. Puerto Rico should choose independence or statehood, and the Congress should approve either way. Continuance of the colonialist/protectionist status is shocking. But D.C. was originally not supposed to have any citizens. Only federal government offices, foreign embassies, and monuments/parks/museums. Perhaps Maryland can reclaim part of the district, as Virginia did.
      - lapcat 3y ago
        > But D.C. was originally not supposed to have any citizens. Times change. That ship has sailed. It's the 21st century now, not the 18th.
        Xorakios 3y ago
        Fair enough, but maybe we should allow Maryland to take back most of the rest of DC. The "no permanent residents" rule isn't necessarily bad

lapcat 3y ago

The majority of Puerto Ricans and the majority of Americans both support Puerto Rican statehood. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Puerto_Rican_status_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Puerto_Rican_status_refer... The only thing stopping Puerto Rican statehood is the lack of majority rule in the US, and the fact that Republicans are heavily against Puerto Rican statehood. It's a partisan issue: "The majority of Democrats showed support for statehood for both D.C. (61.8%) and Puerto Rico (69.7%)" while among Republicans, only 26.7% supported D.C. statehood and 34.8% supported Puerto Rican statehood.

foolswisdom 3y ago
The majority of supporting Puerto Ricans is quite slim (especially compared to the national support). A couple percentage points lower and the majority wouldn't be in favor. So my point was that if you _determined_ the question in a national vote versus a local vote, locals might be quite upset about it (particularly those who lost - if it was a local loss, then they fit to participate and lost, if it was national, then they never got a say). Although, if you're now switching to argue that the national opinion is _against_ (or at least the republicans would block it), then this actually excellently illustrates the original point that there are decisions which shouldn't be made nationally instead of locally!
- lapcat 3y ago
  > The majority of supporting Puerto Ricans is quite slim (especially compared to the national support). A couple percentage points lower and the majority wouldn't be in favor. So? Majorities are often slim. Just look at US elections. The difference is whether you have majority rule or minority rule. > Although, if you're now switching to argue that the national opinion is _against_ (or at least the republicans would block it) I'm not switching, I'm just saying it's a partisan issue, and Republicans happen to be over-represented in the national government due to territorial representation, which is how they're able to block Puerto Rican statehood, against the wishes of the majority. And it's pretty obvious why Republican leaders want to block Puerto Rican and D.C. statehood, because that would likely lead to additional Senate and House seats for Democrats.
  - foolswisdom 3y ago
    > So? Majorities are often slim. Just look at US elections. The difference is whether you have majority rule or minority rule. Slim majorities mean the outcome of the election is not obvious - it's possible that the vote would have a different outcome. > I'm not switching, I'm just saying it's a partisan issue It illustrates the point well regardless.
  - Xorakios 3y ago
    conflating Puerto Rico and DC statehood is frustrating to me. Puerto Rico should choose independence or statehood, and the Congress should approve either way. Continuance of the colonialist/protectionist status is shocking. But D.C. was originally not supposed to have any citizens. Only federal government offices, foreign embassies, and monuments/parks/museums. Perhaps Maryland can reclaim part of the district, as Virginia did.
    - lapcat 3y ago
      > But D.C. was originally not supposed to have any citizens. Times change. That ship has sailed. It's the 21st century now, not the 18th.
      - Xorakios 3y ago
        Fair enough, but maybe we should allow Maryland to take back most of the rest of DC. The "no permanent residents" rule isn't necessarily bad