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The political reality of Germany is still that of climate change denial. Worse, environmentalists are effectively part of that group. Eventually, this will cha

by _hypx 3y ago

The political reality of Germany is still that of climate change denial. Worse, environmentalists are effectively part of that group. Eventually, this will change. You cannot denial reality forever, and especially not of existential problems.

ben_w 3y ago
> You cannot denial reality forever, and especially not of existential problems. Oh yes you can. Or at least, long enough for it to be terminal. Thinking you can't possibly fail is a common reason for failing. The Titanic being [un]sinkable comes to mind, but it's hardly the only case of such hubris.
- _hypx 3y ago
  So you're literally predicting the end of the world. Great.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    Not in this case I'm not — I'm saying here that "nuclear won't save it", which is different, especially as there are many other solutions. You yourself elsewhere on this post are promoting hydrogen storage (I wish all the luck to whoever is working on that); I'm personally in favour of a global power grid; there's a bunch of fusion startups that may or may not get past the political hurdles plaguing fission even if/when they succeed at net power; genetically engineered bio-oils are also a possibility (as feedstock not just as fuel!); geothermal and tidal are also renewable but not seasonal. But on the other hand, I am worried about non-aligned AI, about biodiversity loss, about peak phosphorus, and a whole bunch of other things.
    - _hypx 3y ago
      A global power grid is a far greater fantasy than building hydrogen storage, just FYI.
      - ben_w 3y ago
        Only because of the politics (if Texas can't get out of its own way, what chance international coordination?), and in that regard the comparison is "why not nuclear when it works?" The tech is already known, the boring standard models of HVDC cable are good enough, the time it would take to build that capacity of cables is large but not ridiculously so.
        _hypx 3y ago
        You do realize that hydrogen storage is also already known? The boring method of storing hydrogen in underground salt domes and caverns is well understood. This is all way more practical than crisscrossing the oceans with HVDC lines. And it completely evades all of the political showstoppers that a global grid would run into.
        ben_w 3y ago
        Hydrogen leaks, damages storage vessels and pipes, cryo more so. > The boring method of storing hydrogen in underground salt domes and caverns is well understood. This is all way more practical than crisscrossing the oceans with HVDC lines Ah, no. Salt caverns aren't available everywhere. Getting the hydrogen around isn't easier than getting the electricity the hydrogen makes around. Also storage is normally my pro-hydrogen talking point when I'm facing a hydrogen skeptic and saying why it's not the totemic bad thing you're acting like you think I'm saying it is — but grid storage is however the not the actual core issue the non-totemic skeptics in this thread actually have, they're talking about other things. (That said, props for linking to a home h2 storage solution in that other thread). Heck, when people say hydrogen can't be stored, I point at the 4 GWh hypersonic storage tube that the US government regularly built for single use. But that's not the substantive sticking point for rolling to doubt.
        _hypx 3y ago
        For underground salt domes and caverns? Leaks and damaged vessels are a non-issue. Salt caverns are everywhere. In fact this is how we store natural gas today. And the capacity is truly insane. It is on the order of PWhs: https://www.pv-magazine.com/2020/06/16/hydrogen-storage-in-salt-caverns/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2020/06/16/hydrogen-storage-in-s... Not to mention that hydrogen pipelines move energy more cheaply than cables: https://www.brinknews.com/could-hydrogen-replace-the-need-for-an-electric-grid/ https://www.brinknews.com/could-hydrogen-replace-the-need-fo...

by _hypx 3y ago

ben_w 3y ago

> You cannot denial reality forever, and especially not of existential problems. Oh yes you can. Or at least, long enough for it to be terminal. Thinking you can't possibly fail is a common reason for failing. The Titanic being [un]sinkable comes to mind, but it's hardly the only case of such hubris.

_hypx 3y ago
So you're literally predicting the end of the world. Great.
- ben_w 3y ago
  Not in this case I'm not — I'm saying here that "nuclear won't save it", which is different, especially as there are many other solutions. You yourself elsewhere on this post are promoting hydrogen storage (I wish all the luck to whoever is working on that); I'm personally in favour of a global power grid; there's a bunch of fusion startups that may or may not get past the political hurdles plaguing fission even if/when they succeed at net power; genetically engineered bio-oils are also a possibility (as feedstock not just as fuel!); geothermal and tidal are also renewable but not seasonal. But on the other hand, I am worried about non-aligned AI, about biodiversity loss, about peak phosphorus, and a whole bunch of other things.
  - _hypx 3y ago
    A global power grid is a far greater fantasy than building hydrogen storage, just FYI.
    - ben_w 3y ago
      Only because of the politics (if Texas can't get out of its own way, what chance international coordination?), and in that regard the comparison is "why not nuclear when it works?" The tech is already known, the boring standard models of HVDC cable are good enough, the time it would take to build that capacity of cables is large but not ridiculously so.
      - _hypx 3y ago
        You do realize that hydrogen storage is also already known? The boring method of storing hydrogen in underground salt domes and caverns is well understood. This is all way more practical than crisscrossing the oceans with HVDC lines. And it completely evades all of the political showstoppers that a global grid would run into.
        ben_w 3y ago
        Hydrogen leaks, damages storage vessels and pipes, cryo more so. > The boring method of storing hydrogen in underground salt domes and caverns is well understood. This is all way more practical than crisscrossing the oceans with HVDC lines Ah, no. Salt caverns aren't available everywhere. Getting the hydrogen around isn't easier than getting the electricity the hydrogen makes around. Also storage is normally my pro-hydrogen talking point when I'm facing a hydrogen skeptic and saying why it's not the totemic bad thing you're acting like you think I'm saying it is — but grid storage is however the not the actual core issue the non-totemic skeptics in this thread actually have, they're talking about other things. (That said, props for linking to a home h2 storage solution in that other thread). Heck, when people say hydrogen can't be stored, I point at the 4 GWh hypersonic storage tube that the US government regularly built for single use. But that's not the substantive sticking point for rolling to doubt.
        _hypx 3y ago
        For underground salt domes and caverns? Leaks and damaged vessels are a non-issue. Salt caverns are everywhere. In fact this is how we store natural gas today. And the capacity is truly insane. It is on the order of PWhs: https://www.pv-magazine.com/2020/06/16/hydrogen-storage-in-salt-caverns/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2020/06/16/hydrogen-storage-in-s... Not to mention that hydrogen pipelines move energy more cheaply than cables: https://www.brinknews.com/could-hydrogen-replace-the-need-for-an-electric-grid/ https://www.brinknews.com/could-hydrogen-replace-the-need-fo...